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  #11  
Old 05-29-2008, 01:36 AM
edg edg is offline
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Post B12 resistance

Hi, all. I was Dx with low B12 about a year and a half ago. My symptoms were sleepiness, recurrent vertigo and increased clumsiness. I have been taking 1000mcg of B12 IM since then. I started at once a month but found that I developed mild symptoms three weeks after a shot and started taking one every 3 weeks. I recently had a B12 level about three weeks after my last shot and was surprised to find it to be in the low 300's, not much higher than when I started therapy.

Does anyone know if there is a mechanism for low blood levels, such as sequestration of B12 or antibodies to B12? I know that with decreased renal function utilization of B12 by cells is decreased, but that would give normal levels of serum B12.

I haven't been able to find any info on low levels while on IM injections.

Thanks for any help.

Ed
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  #12  
Old 06-03-2008, 12:01 AM
annelb annelb is offline
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I know many people who take 1000mcg (or more) per day of methylcobalamin. There is evidence that taking that much orally will raise B12 levels.

Quote:
Arch Intern Med. 2005 May 23;165(10):1167-72.
Oral cyanocobalamin supplementation in older people with vitamin B12 deficiency: a dose-finding trial.Eussen SJ, de Groot LC, Clarke R, Schneede J, Ueland PM, Hoefnagels WH, van Staveren WA.
Division of Human Nutrition, Wageningen University, Wageningen, The Netherlands.

BACKGROUND: Supplementation with high doses of oral cobalamin is as effective as cobalamin administered by intramuscular injection to correct plasma markers of vitamin B(12) deficiency, but the effects of lower oral doses of cobalamin on such markers are uncertain. METHODS: We conducted a randomized, parallel-group, double-blind, dose-finding trial to determine the lowest oral dose of cyanocobalamin required to normalize biochemical markers of vitamin B(12) deficiency in older people with mild vitamin B(12) deficiency, defined as a serum vitamin B(12) level of 100 to 300 pmol/L (135-406 pg/mL) and a methylmalonic acid level of 0.26 mumol/L or greater. We assessed the effects of daily oral doses of 2.5, 100, 250, 500, and 1000 mug of cyanocobalamin administered for 16 weeks on biochemical markers of vitamin B(12) deficiency in 120 people. The main outcome measure was the dose of oral cyanocobalamin that produced 80% to 90% of the estimated maximal reduction in the plasma methylmalonic acid concentration. RESULTS: Supplementation with cyanocobalamin in daily oral doses of 2.5, 100, 250, 500, and 1000 mug was associated with mean reductions in plasma methylmalonic acid concentrations of 16%, 16%, 23%, 33%, and 33%, respectively. Daily doses of 647 to 1032 mug of cyanocobalamin were associated with 80% to 90% of the estimated maximum reduction in the plasma methylmalonic acid concentration. CONCLUSION: The lowest dose of oral cyanocobalamin required to normalize mild vitamin B(12) deficiency is more than 200 times greater than the recommended dietary allowance, which is approximately 3 mug daily.

PMID: 15911731 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
I mention methylcobalamin as that does not have to be converted as does cyanocoblalmin. Not everyone does a good job of doing this conversion.
Anne
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  #13  
Old 06-03-2008, 11:31 AM
rose rose is offline
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In addition to what Anne replied , there has been lab confirmation that some rare people who do not accumulate usable B12 from cyanocobalamin shots do build stores well with oral methylcobalamin.

There are some uncommon reasons for this. In order to store and appropriately use B12, it must be a usable type (converted as Anne said, or the usable type taken in the first place---methylcobalamin). Also, the body must be able to transport the B12 and store it.

You may not be able to convert cyanocobalamin. Or, you may need it very frequently because you store it very badly (is your liver ok?). Or, you may need large quantitied of usable B12 (methylcobalamin) for some reason or reasons.

Any one of these things, or a combination of them, or other very rare conditions can cause what you describe. The absorption and use of B12 is very complex and much can go wrong.

I would take 5000 mcg methylcobalamin daily for a long while. 1000 mcg would probably be fine, but I wouldn't want to take the chance in your situation. Then, once it is established that the B12 evel is very high, I might cut back to a couple of times a week to keep it that way.

rose
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  #14  
Old 06-03-2008, 12:28 PM
mrsdoubtfyre mrsdoubtfyre is offline
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Lightbulb testing...

There is a new DNA test over the counter provided by Solgar now (just being introduced) that measures genetic failures in vitamin utilization by the body.

They then taylor supplements to match your weaknesses.

You can call them to find a store that is trained in this testing, and also
selling the supplements suggested by the test results.

It is called Nutragenomx
Quote:
Firms Roll Out Retail Nutrigenomics

Consumer genomics firm GeneLink (Jersey City, N.J.) announced an exclusive, multi-year retail licensing and distribution agreement with Solgar Vitamin and Herb (Leona, N.J.) to market a nutrigenomic line of nutritional supplements. Under the agreement, Solgar will market a brand of nutritional supplements called Nutrigenomx that are tailored to individual consumers’ genes based on the results of a GeneLink DNA collection kit and Genetic Compass reporting system. The collection kits and supplements will be available at health food and specialty natural food retailers in North America.

“By combining Solgar’s leadership in nutritional sciences with GeneLink’s ten-plus years of research and advancements in consumer genomics and SNP testing, we have created an ideal marketing relationship for each of our companies,” said GeneLink CEO Monte Taylor. “A personalized approach to wellness has become an important trend in healthcare.”
from http://www.aacc.org/publications/cln...stry_0208.aspx

I know one of the tests is the MTHFR (folate methylation) gene.
I haven't seen the test yet as only one store in my state has it now.
As they train people, more stores will carry the line.
It costs $125.00 OTC (no insurance allowed), for the DNA test which is a cheek swab.

I have been told that methylfolate will be sold as a stand alone product by Solgar beginning in late June or so. It is already included in the Nutrigenomx
line. If you Google Solgar, you can find their toll free # and they will tell you
more.

This is pretty exciting since now we just "guess" and suggest people use activated B12 and folate. Now you can PROVE if you need them. They are typically so inexpensive however, that it is not an issue to use the better forms anyway.
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  #15  
Old 06-20-2008, 04:52 PM
Naominjw Naominjw is offline
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Default Whaere to test, and what does MTHFR have to do with B12?

My daughter is one of the people with B12 blood level >2000 (2000 was highest the measurement went up to) with normal range up to 911. The doctor said that would only be if her cells somewhow were not getting enough B12 so her kidneys were hanging on to as much as it could.

They have never tested her homocysteine, etc levels.

It explains why getting on a supplement helped her childhood-onset "mental illness" (and yes, she had neurological problems, ataxia, migraines, seizure-like episodes, fatigue).

I keep seeing folate discussed when B12 is discussed, and wonder why? Also, what would testing the MTHFR gene for folate metabolism have to do with B12?

Lastly, I cannot find the genetic test for cobalamin (B12) metabolic variants. Where? I would like to get my daughter tested for both.

I have read that not all MTHFR (folate) problems are fixable with extra folate.

Thaks,
"Naomi"
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  #16  
Old 06-20-2008, 09:10 PM
mrsdoubtfyre mrsdoubtfyre is offline
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Lightbulb methylation

Chemistry is complex. I don't understand all of it myself.

The MTHFR polymorphism is bypassed by the TYPE of folate used.

By using methylfolate instead of folic acid, the error no longer is an issue.

You can go to Solgar's website and call their toll free number (their email does not work) They will tell you where near you the DNA test is being offered. It is still being worked on, and requires training at the store level, so they will not sell the special Nutrigenomx line without training the store staff first. There is only one store so far in my state, for example.
It costs about $125.00 and does not need a doctor's order.

B12 given as cyanocobalamin has to be activated as well, thru 4 steps.
This may fail as well. The activated form is methylcobalamin and is OTC.
We typically buy it from iherb.com

Solgar makes specific nutrient mixtures based on the DNA test showing
what you specifically need.
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  #17  
Old 06-20-2008, 11:31 PM
annelb annelb is offline
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I am glad to hear that Solgar will be making methylfolate available. Thanks for this info.

I found this about the conversion of folate to mathylfolate. According to this the majority cannot do this very well. http://www.metanx.com/UnaffectedByTheCTPolymorphism
Anne
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  #18  
Old 07-13-2008, 01:15 PM
heldo18 heldo18 is offline
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rose,

Dont knowif youy remember me from a couple of years back.. I am worried about having ms as I am getting b12 jabs, my brain and spine scan were normal but I still get lots of mysymptoms. My left arm doenst seem to twist as much as my right and I dont know if this is just something I have and have sterted obsessing over. I am also a very anxious person so some docs say my symptoms are anxiety. Thanks for all you do on this site

x
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