View Full Version : Calling an emergency IEP, already....*sigh*

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01-11-2007, 12:55 AM
Pogue - too funny:D
Mili - what happened with the RDI consultant sort of leading them at the school - is she still doing that?

01-11-2007, 01:02 AM
Hi Peg!
Well, he was using the private bathroom for some time, I don't remember when or why they stopped, and doubt they told me. Fortunately, he goes to the bathroom other than during the 'rush' after a bell rings...I think...I can't be sure really. Honest it's not even an 'issue'...other than at school. It wasn't supposed to become a big deal. I thought I'd tell Adolf how rushed and upset Vince felt, she'd think or say "wow, didn't realize that, thanks" and would follow up accordingly. For Vince, that would involve her saying that she didn't intend to make him feel rushed, or upset (he'd have liked that, cause when someone upsets him, he always believes he is upset cause they tried to upset him and it was their intention). Then she'd have to say "Sorry Vince" to which he'd immediately respond, "That's ok", satisfied that she was justly 'punished' (very important to Vince, mr. justice - in theory not in practice, lol). And then, the next time she spoke to him from outside the potty, if need be to ask if he was ok (NOT TO RUSH HIM) she could begin by saying, "I don't want to rush you or make you upset, I was concerned, are you ok?" and I know he'd be fine with that. So, so would I.

Kick uncooperative teacherbutt.

Hee hee.

Of course I'd love you to come out, but it would be for us to have FUN. Plus, you didn't meet Vincent yet. If you wind up observing stuff that could help me help him with school that would be awesome - I'm sure any public place we'd go, would give you ample amounts of autism to observe. Hmmm, ample amounts of autism, sounds like a recipe (for disaster, lol!).

I have to add, with as crazy as things feel at the moment, I can't believe you'd do all that driving all the way here on a vacation day no less...yikes! I dunno how much of Madcity-life you'd see, cause wow is it cold (as you know I'm sure). And I know you're a city 'vibe' kind of gal.

Now, if you feel like doing something INSANE, let's go to the largest underwater aquarium at that giant mall in Minnesota...then you can observe ample amounts of autism from ME, not Vince. Watch Lisa as she begins to sweat and turn pale as we leave the driveway of my home, then as she crouches walking swiftly with real odd posture trying to get past all the humans, smells, sounds, lights, words flying everywhere...to the tranquility of the killer sharks tank, lol. Of course, you'll have to go on the roller coaster with Vince till one of ya's puke.

And no way would I go with dh, cause he would be another demand on me...hard to explain, I don't mean he'd be a jerk, just sort of naturally cumbersome somehow, it's like when he's with me and the kids I have one more thing to deal with and try to stay calm while he aggravates the crap out of me cause I'm trying to satisfy his complaints - although I have no idea why I keep doing that, he's a big boy.

Ok, well, anytime you're willing to drive way out here, I'm game for what ever you want to do. OH...and...I will be glad to make you those collards I'm always talking about. ;) Orrrrrrr, I could take us to that delish Gyro place I found in Mad-city. Or both :D

01-11-2007, 01:16 AM
Pogue - too funny:D
Mili - what happened with the RDI consultant sort of leading them at the school - is she still doing that?

She has spoken to school 3X's since the last IEP. Remember how rude they were to her, told her she had a lot of nerve, told her they'd let her know what role she'd have IF ANY. Behind the scenes, cause I'm so stinkin glad school is talking to her, I offered to pay for her time with them - she is extremely generous with her time, I'm sure she has easily spent 20+ hours on the phone with me, another 20+ in emails, since she visited over the summer. So, I feel really adament that I want her to feel appreciated, and pay the very small amount, for her time with school. I seriously doubt she'll bill me, already told me no, but I will reciprocate somehow. You just don't know how much I appreciate her generous nature, so want to do the opposite of taking advantage.

Ok, so, she spoke to school, yes. But to my awareness, Adolf is not following anything at all she has suggested. Right down to the easiest suggestion, sending home POSITIVE comments about Vincent for me to praise him for, and build some feeling of competence/success in him. She doesn't use declaratives (another easy adjustment), ugh, worst of all everything the consultant says to her, she says "I already do that" nodding her head. She really believes she does. How do you communicate to someone that is like that? That is another reason, I keep comparing her to a 'collector' (those folks that have like 200 cats in their house which reeks, is knee deep in fecal matter, they're all sick, and the collector swears the cats are soooo lucky and would be dead without them). How she sees herself, some mother teresa of autism, is not how she is. She is devoted to the point of playing the role of martyr and victim frequently, then switches wicked fast into a Nurse Ratchet (One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest) thinking with enough firmness, her 'lessons' and 'wisdom' will implant into 'her' students' heads. Similar to my old belief, that Vince would 'absorb' nt-ness by being around nt peers at school (waaaaaaay back long ago, when I was a newbie to all this). UNlike me, she cannot see how inept she is. I live in a constant state of inept searching for answers, with momentary flashes of emotional connection (aka success!) with my son.

Know what I mean.

Wow, that sure was a long answer to a short question :o . Better get on top of my 'ongoing appraisal' system so I can analyze what is relevant information to tell you, prioritize that relevant information, type it briefly and say bye.

Bye :D

01-11-2007, 01:28 AM
No, It's all good. Even if it was, I like irrelevant info. It's my hobby.
Anyway, about the positive comments, that is such a big issue for so many people, only getting the 'bad notes' home or the 'come pick him up' phone calls, or the general feeling that your kid has more opportunities for failure than success.
It would be so easy for them to turn this aspect around at many schools, it's almost as if they are worried that some positive input would get your 'hopes' up or something.

01-11-2007, 01:50 AM
it's almost as if they are worried that some positive input would get your 'hopes' up or something.

Nah, I still won't hope they'll become competent. :eek: Shame on me! That was not even necessary.

The Pogue
01-14-2007, 12:05 AM
It's colder than a witches tit down here, and you want to go to Minnesota???? You're a braver soul than I am, Gunga Din!

Hehe...I remember liking Minneapolis, last time I was there (1985), interviewing for a job. However, going to a mall (any mall) is kinda like a having a pelvic exam: unpleasant, but unfortunately necessary from time to time. I'd be hyperventiliating right along with you; not a pretty picture for the rest of the world. Carmen would be giving us pep talks, and Vince would be doing his thing. I can't wait to meet him!!

01-14-2007, 01:00 AM
Well I just have to ask...I don't want to, I have to...exactly how cold is a witches tit?

01-18-2007, 02:07 AM

Response by parents of Vincent to letter from ***XX dated January 16, 2007, to Milivica ;)

From school:
As per your response on January 4, 2007 we are under the impression that you are satisfied with the arrangements we suggested for Vincent’s bathroom use. If you are unsatisfied with the response of Ms. ***XX dated January 4, 2007, you may contact the Section 504/ADA coordinator, ***XX, who will investigate the complaint and relay to you in writing.

response: I thought this was concluded...he should not feel feel rushed, harassed or threatened to lose an enjoyed activity while using the bathroom. We don't believe the harassment was intentional (she thought he was horsing around so rushed him). But he was injured, he was bleeding from trying so hard to rush.

We believed she was not aware of this, he said he did not tell her, so we reacted accordingly. We asked that any staff that feels uncomfortable with our son's giving hugs and other physical contact should obviously not be involved in any way with him while he is in the bathroom as well.

From school:
You have suggested that Vincent is not receiving FAPE. As stated in a letter to you on November 7, 2007 we are confident that we are in compliance with eh IEP and that Vincent is receiving a free and appropriate public education. You have been given a copy of your parent rights. If you still feel that we are not in compliance you may file a complaint with the Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction or you have the right to a due process hearing.

my response: Vince is receiving FPE...Free Public Education. We are not saying it is due to a lack of effort on the school's part, but a lack of school's knowledge about autism. No school staff, not even the director of student services, are yet able to identify Vincent's deficits causing the behaviors that impede his ability to learn. Since school cannot identify them, they are not addressed with evidence based procedure. If they were, we would feel Vincent was receiving FAPE.

If that has changed, please inform us of what deficits are now identified, and what evidence based procedure school is now using to address them.

From school:
The district believes that the current case-manager is appropriate.

my response: Can you tell us the reasons why you believe this? Because we can tell you why we do not.

We feel an appropriate case manager would be able to identify deficits common to autistic children like our son - at none of the meetings or IEP's or emails could she - and in turn - cannot and does not address them using evidence based procedures. That inability for her to understand him turns into frustration for Vincent, then into inappropriate behaviors, that impede his learning.

An appropriate case manager would have the ability to communicate effectively with Vincent and his parents, and visa versa, so the child feels understood and IS understood. An appropriate case manager knows how to challenge a student to increase competence, not frustration leading to behaviors that impede education. Understands where the lack of flexible thinking and lack of resilience comes from and doesn't confuse it with bad behaviors or try to punish the child for his disability. She knows how to build positive emotional memories to tie to school work, and how to create attentive focused behavior. She simultaneously understands how all this effects him continually throughout the school day, and is able to oversee other staff that work with him also do so. She possesses none of these qualities with our son.

If we all were able to communicate, if he were able to do grade level work or participate independently in the general curriculum as in early years, perhaps who manages his case wouldn't be such a relevant issue.

from school:
Typically, certified teaching staff communicates directly with the parents. The SEAs communicate with the certified teaching staff. SEAs share observations and information with the case-manager on a regular basis.

my response: Yes, typically certified teaching staff communicate with parents, however this is not done with Vincent's parents. In our case, we have no written or verbal communication other than what is filtered and altered through administration. Since Vincent and his parents are treated differently in these ways it is even more vital there is communication from the SEA's.

Per school:
While there is no rule that SEAs may not attend IEP meetings, it is standard practice that they do not attend IEP meetings. We will consider inviting one SEA (most SEAs work with Vincent for short periods of time-we’d want to invite one that spends more time with him) to the meeting in which the goals and behavior plan will be discussed in February.

my response: Although it has been standard practice SEA's not attend Vincent's IEP's, it is not a standard practice they do not attend IEP meetings. We now know they do, though have been told for years it is not permitted.

Per school:
The District has not denied you the opportunity to volunteer in the general education classroom. You also have not been denied the opportunity to visit your children during lunch or attend school events.

Not all general education teachers have parent volunteers in the classrooms. The special education teachers at school do not utilize parent volunteers.

my response: We are being denied our request to observe, volunteer and participate in Vincent's classroom...meaning one that he is in when we are there. We request this in order to be able to participate fully as team members at the IEP meetings and in creating an IEP. No other member creating the IEP, is excluded from observation and participation as we are.

Per school:
The District denies your request for additional observations because the District feels that you have been noticed of and participated in your son’s educational program meetings. Your son’s progress has been reported to you frequently and, at least as often as progress reports are given to regular education parents. During the first nine weeks of this school year, you have observed in school on seven occasions. These observations have afforded you the opportunity to observe your son’s school day across many different activities and instructors. The District feels that you have had a reasonable and adequate opportunity to observe at school and has asked that you discontinue your observations until further notice. The District has explained to you on numerous occasions that your observations are disruptive to the on-going learning environment for our students and staff. It is because of this documented disruptive behavior that the District denies your request for additional observations.

my response: We have not observed in over 2 months, neither of us has observed our son even ONE full school day yet. We have never been "disruptive" during observation, have sat where told against the wall or at a table and never spoken. We were under your observation including the walk through the hall to observe. This is the first we've been notified there is "documented disruptive behavior". Since this is the new excuse to prevent us from observing our son, forward to us the "documented disruptive behavior" during observation.

How did the District determine what is sufficient observation to be a fully participating member of the IEP team anyway?

"Future notice" is vague, how is "future notice" determined, does it mean never? Does it mean school knows it is Vincent's last year at this school, so drag this out as long as possible? Is it personal, like some kind of punishment for us?

What in the world does the District fear we will see when observing?

Per school:
We have been trying to find a resource that would help explain the IEP paperwork and has only found information that does NOT reflect the most recent changes in the law. The district uses paperwork from the state. Has your parent advocate been able to offer and ideas? Perhaps his state case worker would know of a resource.

Mother's response: Oh, I only asked because I thought school was supposed to explain so that I'd understand what the verbiage means, what the documents say and mean.

Per school:
For your portion of the meeting (8:30) please come prepared with any ideas you may have for IEP development and BIP development. Also, there is a section for parent information on the evaluation paperwork. If you would like to submit a paragraph to add as part of the evaluation, please bring it along or e-mail it and we’ll get it into the document.

Mother's response: I may not be able to contribute IEP and BIP the ideas pertaining to the FBA results since this meeting will be the first moment I hear them. Even if I could, the alloted 10 minutes would not be sufficient for such. I will need to play the tape of the meeting to Vincent's dad, we will then reflect on and discuss the information given, then create contributions to the IEP and BIP.

What we can do for the meeting is submit this for now:

The Special Education School staff working with our son must be able to understand the deficits of our autistic son, which cause the behaviors that impede his learning. Staff working with him as well as the new BIP should be able to identify and distinguish between the two (deficits due to disability - vs. - behaviors caused by deficits) and respond appropriately (ie. never punish for a deficit due to disability). This new BIP should use only evidence based procedure.

Thank You,

01-18-2007, 11:57 AM
Thanks for the update, Mili. I'm not sure what to say about all that, but I'm glad you're sticking to your guns. On the bathroom issue, I don't think it matters whether Adolph knew he was hurting himself (well of course it matters- I'm just saying as far as her behavior goes) or thought he was fooling around- she should not have hurried him along AND she should know him well enough by now (and his bathroom situation) to know how to help him instead of squaring off against him. She should know him well enough by now, to know that she was only increasing his anxiety...leading to behaviors. She doesn't know how to collaborate with him to get him to work. Not only that, she's not too bright either- how many times does she need to try her old, tired strategies before she learns that they don't work. Before Adolf, other teachers and staff were able to get him learning, even if they couldn't name his specific deficits- they still knew how to work with him to his benefit. He has regressed academically, how can the school still insist he's got the "A" part of FAPE w/o knowing why he regressed?

01-18-2007, 12:06 PM
I agree with you, am trying to be civil and diplomatic, but feel like a broken record. But, who knows, by keeping this updated here, some other parent might be able to get benefit for their kid somehow - or give me an idea to benefit mine.

She just does not get him, or me...and he doesn't get her, neither do I. Clearly we will wind up in Due Process. I'm waiting to see if one of the places I contacted, will investigate first. I'm not sure if going to Due Process, would halt that - and - the agency I hope will investigate (as I understand things) will do so not only for Vincent but the other kids with disabilities.

This is so frustrating, to know he is with staff that he tries to progress with in spite of, not because of. But, I do not feel hopeless, cause at least I finally feel I understand what he needs (I just have no idea how to get school to understand it). It was a much worse feeling, to see him in limbo and not know what to do. Now I at least have some direction in my own ability to parent him and help him grow and develop.

But my head sure hurts!

01-20-2007, 01:21 AM
The letter from school was unreal. Bold face lies, describing disruptive behavior I never did, so they have an excuse to keep me banned from observation.

Still no excuses to ban my husband.

I'm betting surely, this will now become legal. I'm very upset, to see the awful lies written about me, yet, I know they know they are lies. What I don't know is how many others received these lies, and believe them (from school, IEP team, gossipy mothers).

Fortunately, I do have the very person who wrote the lies about me, on tape stating that I have never been disruptive during observation. That tape was made AFTER my last observation. Since I have not observed since that tape, clearly this letter is a lie to any mediator or judge or any person reading it.

I really truly did not get it, that school would bold faced lie. I got it that it 'could' happen, but I don't think I really got it. I still kind of don't believe it, even though I read it. I'm stunned.

I won't get wrapped up in it, I will take legal action as it is now their reason to ban me from observation. Other defamation unrelated to observation, I will not respond to.

My main question still, was:
No school staff, not even the director of student services, are yet able to identify Vincent's deficits causing the behaviors that impede his ability to learn. Since school cannot identify them, they are not addressed with evidence based procedure. If they were, we would feel Vincent was receiving FAPE. If that has changed, please inform us of what deficits are now identified, and what evidence based procedure school is now using to address them.

I really really have to focus now, more than ever, on getting FAPE for Vincent.

I need to step up offering ideas for them to do, which is hard when I can't observe but I still can do it. I think asking them questions, which I never really get answers to, is a bureaucratic waste of time. IF they follow the ideas and succeed, it's good for Vince, and they're welcome to bathe in their egos. As long as Vince and the other kids reap the benefits.

Really, I'm just still kind of shocked. Somehow, now Adolf is the victim, I am the 'psycho', and no where is Vincent mentioned. Thank God there has been progress at home. I think I'd be desperate and hopeless beyond what I could bear, if I didn't see progress here at least.

Thank God for all of you here. As I paged through this epic thread, I kept thinking of all the time and effort so many of you have put into it. Thank you, just thank you all. Very much. It's a huge part of the reason I'm doing this well despite all this. Thank you.

01-20-2007, 08:08 PM
<<<<<<<<{{{{{{huge Hugs}}}}}}>>>>

01-22-2007, 12:53 AM
I was really hoping that this whole situation would be straightened out
to your satisfaction, but it seems that they are determined to do just
about anything to avoid giving Vince the help he needs in school.

And, the fact that they're telling lies about you and trying to keep
you out of the school is just so wrong! It's good that you have
them on tape, because you can prove that they lied about you
"being disruptive".

I really hope that you can get some good legal counsel that will
help you get through this. The school has to understand that
they won't be allowed to continue treating you and Vince like

Good luck!

01-22-2007, 01:18 AM
Thank you both very much. It's been hurts me lots more than I could have realized, on and off that they just have this power to keep me from seeing my own child at school. Which, if they were understanding him and treating him right, I wouldn't even want to go. I finally GET what he needs, and they have to power to keep it from him all day every day 5 days a week.

Do you know that Adolf, despite the other autistic child biting his arm till bleeding...continues to have him play games with her and Vincent in a competitive nature (where there is a winner, and losers). Given what the deficits are in autism, why would she do that? Cripe, tons of nt's can't even handle losing. Game playing is great, but why not do so in a way you can all be on the same team, so there is no win/lose, just togetherness.

When Vince and I play darts, we add up our score. When we play board games, the rats play too. If I didn't do stuff like that, he would focus on the game itself, rather than the emotion sharing and experience sharing, and he would freak when things didn't go as he wanted, such as missing the dart board, or losing money in the game. H3ll, his FAVORITE part of one game is GOING TO JAIL! Last time, he set up the cards so the next person to get one would go to jail, and the rat turned out to get the card, went to jail, and Vince said, "Cloudy's pissed, I set him up!" and started laughing his butt off knowing Cloudy 'took the fall' for him rigging the cards.

I know someday we'll have to get into rules and whatnot, but first, you have to have FUN at games (called the Why Bothers in RDI) to want to play them. And you don't do that, fixating on the game or rules...as I recently found out myself at 42 :o . It's ok to cheat! As long as everyone is having fun all cheating together, hee hee.

01-22-2007, 11:13 PM
This situation just keeps getting uglier and uglier. I'm sorry this makes you feel so bad...Thank God Vince has you working(playing?) so hard with him. His progress at home sounds amazing and I'm so jealous of you guys playing in your "winter wonderland." We wanted to take Allie up North to play in the snow this weekend, (she is obsessed with snowmen-thought it would be cool to build one) but car trouble intervened. I hope we'll still get a chance, but DH is being switched to weekend shift, so...

01-22-2007, 11:21 PM
Mili, do you have any autism advocacy organizations in your state? A local
chapter of ASA, for example? Or any other children's organization that has
experience with autism? I'm just thinking that a group like that should be
able to help you get the support Vince needs in school. That, plus the
right legal counsel, should hopefully get you the results you need.

((((((((Mili)))))))) ((((((((Vince))))))))

01-23-2007, 02:05 AM
This situation just keeps getting uglier and uglier. I'm sorry this makes you feel so bad...Thank God Vince has you working(playing?) so hard with him. His progress at home sounds amazing and I'm so jealous of you guys playing in your "winter wonderland." We wanted to take Allie up North to play in the snow this weekend, (she is obsessed with snowmen-thought it would be cool to build one) but car trouble intervened. I hope we'll still get a chance, but DH is being switched to weekend shift, so...

My sleeping pill is kicking in...I knew I'd need one tonight. I feel like an enviscerated gazelle with all hope lost walking back into a den of lions to be finished off. But ya know what, this change WILL happen for all of our kids, and I will see it in my lifetime, and it's gonna be so, and that's it. Don't know it'll come from me is the only problem.

But hey, I want to talk to you about the snowman thing later...I feel too spacey now. Remember, it's the emotion sharing, not the activity. The abstract, not the absolute. I'll post tomorrow babycakes.


01-23-2007, 02:07 AM
OH, and by the way, yes I feel like I was hit by a truck. Then several more trucks as I tried to get off the road. Wow, ya just can't shovel 5 hours like ya can when you're young!

01-23-2007, 11:51 AM
Lisa - every time I come back to this post I just want to jump on a plane and come help you! Or at least go and anonamously kick some a$$...

There is a great aquarium in Knoxville, TN too - 4 stories of fish with a spiral staircase that goes around so you can see all the kinds of fish that live at different levels. I know - you should go on the road with Vince and write about all the aquariums in the world - I'll be your editor and agent! ;)

01-23-2007, 05:05 PM
OMG, the meeting was more awful that I anticipated. Never again, am I doing that without the consultant. I couldn't communicate effectively at all. Well it was awful. This weekend, the consultant is meeting with an attorney, to see what she can and cannot do within the school system. As bad as things are at the moment, I have to say this consultant is literally one in a million, probably higher odds than that even. I have never ever met or heard of a therapist, that goes so far to do her best for kids on the spectrum, and their parents, that they seek information across all facets of our kids lives.

So, I have to maintain hope, even when I feel like I've been spiritually run over (mostly due to my inabilities at the meeting this time) as long as this woman is in my son's corner, he has much hope for his future.

Anyhow...I didn't know Tennessee had such a cool aquarium! Sounds awesome, I'll have to look it up. I have no plans to drive to Tennessee, but then again, I have no plans not to! If I do, maybe you'll consider coming to the aquarium with us...you can meet my wild son and his crazy mom (me!) and our poor very sane daughter in the midst of all this chaos. My husband actually grew up in Tennessee, still has quite an accent. He grew up until he was 15 in the same place, near where Elvis's Graceland is, on White Haven (same name as the school that was/is there). His street was unpaved then. He said it was very racially mixed and everyone got along just fine. He has nice memories of there, it was hard for him to move here, took a long time for him to get adjusted.

01-23-2007, 05:54 PM
Mili, are you sure that RDI consultant is human? Sounds more like God sent you an angel:) (Do other people see her too?) Sorry the meeting went so bad, but, even if it had gone well- those people aren't really going to help Vince:(

Hearing you and frogmama discuss meeting makes me think it would be really cool to have a Braintalk union (kinda like a reunion, except no re-). Wouldn't it be cool to have a week or two in the summer where we all meet at a campground or something and have a bunch of activities? It'd be great to sit around a campfire with BT people!

01-24-2007, 02:43 AM
That would be way cool! Of course, I'd have to sit on the edge of you all and play with bugs or some critter and just listen till I got comfy. At which time, I wouldn't shut up so you'd probably want me to go back to playing with the bugs :o . But yes yes, that would be cool. I'm done with my good cry (ok, I didn't cry, but the lump in my throat is less painful - yes it actually literally hurts).

And the consultant, yes, she is beyond human. I'd be hopeless without her. She's a combination of Martin Luther King Jr. in his early years and the Crocodile Hunter before he passed. She has God given talent and learned expertise in her profession, has a profession of helping those weaker than her by neurology (the kids) or expertise (like us parents). She becomes stronger by helping others gain strength, rather than weakening or exploiting others with her strengths. She is not satisfied with our kids getting some of what they need, seems to be driven to learn and become proficient in all aspects and areas us parents need help with, to help our kids such as the school system.

I'm beat, beaten, tired, and planning a 10 minute pity party for myself before bed :( . Yes, with a consultant like her I got nerve throwing myself a pity party, but the waiting for school to get what Vince needs, if ever they do, and the whole banned from observation thing as I sit paralyzed to help him or be arrested. It's just wearing on me fierce. I need a victory...like Vince finally making ONE friend. Ya know?

Hangin tough!
(mostly tough but a little wimpy too),

01-25-2007, 02:07 PM
A case has been opened against school because they find evidence that in fact me being banned from observation was retaliatory.

I'm afraid to say the person/agency, cause I don't know if that could hurt the case.

This is the first time I feel I can finally see the benefit to following school's ban even though I knew it was wrong, I didn't want to make myself look like a trouble maker.

Should any of you ever need to know how I did this over the months, please email me and I'll tell you the steps I took (cause by the time you'd read it in this epic thread your kid would be 21).

LOVE and THANKS to ALL of you.

01-25-2007, 03:26 PM
I hope it leads to some good changes at school and some peace of mind for you.

01-25-2007, 04:37 PM
Before your "epic" posts dissapear in the nether land of technology going wrong, make copies for a ....you never know a book or just for posterity.

Wish you tons of luck!

01-26-2007, 03:37 PM
Yes finely a little light. If we did have a gathering of Braintalk Rita says she would love to play with you with the bugs. She loves them, watching them crawl watching them work all of it she also loves snakes and lizards as well :rolleyes: I so wanted a "girly girl" :(

01-26-2007, 11:37 PM
Thank you Peg and Isabelle.

MaryEv, fooey on the girly girl thing - enjoy! Tell her I just found out last year that millipedes when irritated, release syonide(sp) that Lemurs use to keep away bugs and mosquitos by rubbing the bug on their fur after lightly biting (irritating) them. But look that up on the internet first, might be only a certain type of millipede. Pretty cool info, huh! Why don't you get her some bugs to keep...Vince has spiders we find in the house that are too big to feed to the fish. In the spring, we'll let them go. Also, you can get spikes or mealworms from a bait shop and see them go through their metamorphesus(sp) and change into beetles and flies. Cool huh! Also you can get some worms, you'll see round things in their soil after a few days, those are eggs. When they hatch about 5 teeny worms come out. Also you could get her a cheap but way cool microscope from ToysRUs so she can see the really really teeny bugs (bacteria, whatnot). But GO RITA, yes, bugs are sure cool. You can even get stick bugs or hissing roaches at pet shops too. Wingless fruit flies too. Also, if you get some female crickets from a pet shop (their the ones with an oviductum which looks like a small stick protruding out of their butt but really it's hollow and used to deposit eggs into the soil. Anyhow, if you get female crickets and put them in a container with soil they'll immediately start laying their eggs, she can observe that, then the babies appear as super teeny white duplicates of their parents (but will canibalize each other if you don't have food for them, so have food for them). And go RITA!

Mother's Heart
01-27-2007, 12:43 AM
"(but will canibalize each other if you don't have food for them, so have food for them). And go RITA!"

what food for them?


(Hi MILI!)

01-27-2007, 10:59 AM
No Spiders :eek: I am scared of them. I know no reason to be but am. Last year in school Rita and her class raised mealworms and she loved the whole process. She has been watching Mearkat Mannor on Animal planet and now is making a Mearkat world with her legos commplet with bugs to eat LOL :D
We had an Ant Farm for her but she thought they were sad because they were in a cage and she let them go out side :rolleyes: In Girl Scouts last year we studied bugs and the girls loved learning all about worms and how the eat and that the dirt is realy theire poop :p

01-27-2007, 01:53 PM
"(but will canibalize each other if you don't have food for them, so have food for them). And go RITA!"

what food for them?


(Hi MILI!)

No, I mean the baby crickets will cannibalize one another if they have no food to eat, I use about any vegetable. I found that out accidentally, when some crickets layed in the dirt I had on the bottom of their container, one day there was like a carpet of teeny white specks...at closer look I realized they were cricket babies, and at closer look, I realized were eating one another. I didn't mean for it to happen of course.

Spikes are sort like meal worms, but they don't have a hard exoskeleton like meal worms, they are called wax worms too. They change into beautiful jet black house flies, which, I know ordinarily aren't beautiful to most folks, but, when they first appear from their cocoon, their wings aren't ready for flight so it will crawl around on your finger, you can really check it out, then just put it outside. I love temporary pets too.

MaryEv, I used to be scared to death of all spiders, now I'm way better. Took years of trying real hard to get over my fear, cause I was worried I'd make my kids fearful. Of course Carmen wound up fearful anyhow, but not nearly as bad as I was. And that's awesome she set her ants free, lol, I love it. I think they die without a queen, but the thing is, Rita is clearly more concerned with their happiness than her being able to observe them, what a sweetie, such wonderful compassion and empathy and selfLESSness being more concerned about the ants and their feelings than her own. What a great kid.

02-20-2007, 09:46 PM
Mili, I'm just dying to know how today's IEP meeting went.

02-21-2007, 12:33 AM
Today was a total disaster.

I have no idea why, but I couldn't stop repeating the question "why won't you let me observe him?" in about every way I could ask it. I just couldn't stop, no one would answer me but started talking to eachother, then over me, announced the meeting was OVER and they'd just implement the IEP without me. As if they wouldn't anyway. I feel destroyed. I'll never ever ever in my life, win anything social for my kid. Don't let anyone tell you autism is so special and having it isn't so bad, it's like being in constant pain only it's emotional. You can trick yourself into believing you have happy days, but it's bullsh!t, that's my past present and future, and will be Vincent's also. I hope God makes a meteor hit our house tonight. When all the teachers walked out of the room, the spec. ed director made sure the door was closed then started rubbing the assoc prin's right arm saying, "Is Lisa making you feel threatened? Do you feel threatened, are you threatened by her" and the assoc prin kept staring at her blankly. I said, "I feel threatened!" then I couldn't stop saying that. Then I walked out saying that still. Then made myself pretend to be someone else, walked down the hall and went to Carmen's assembly where she read a poem so she could have a real mom for a few minutes, then went home and called the cops to ask if I'd be arrested for observing (no solid answer there), then overheard my neighbor talking to the utility man saying she has to move cause I'm crazy, then poked my head in the attic, we have a leak in the roof aparantly, then called the guy on my school's website who is the something or another...I forget his title, the president of something. He said he wasn't God but he'd get some resolution out of the superintendent I was unable to get results from...so I said I really didn't think he was God and for all I know the janitor is higher than him in a NICE way cause I was trying to let him know, I didn't know if he could help or not, and wasn't calling him cause I thought I was calling a bigshot - anyhow it came out all wrong. I haven't felt this autistic since high school, I just feel awful. OH and after all the teacher's were told to leave the room at the IEP, and after I left the room, there were 2 teachers in the hall and one was crying and she said she felt so bad about how I was being treated and she knew I had nothing but good intentions in my heart and I thanked her and acted happy she said it, but inside I felt like "So what you support me in the hall, say something in the room!".

I will lose every social battle I attempt, but I could never ever be a lemming or sheep or whatever, and like I told them today, I just can't can't can't sit in a room, where folks are purposely doing my son wrong aka doing me wrong, and act like 'oh lets all talk like everything is ok'. I would if I COULD, but honest I just CAN'T. I've held it in, tried for FOUR MONTHS to act like I can handle what school is doing, and I can't take it any more, I just can't. I know my son's year is TRASHED. Adolf hasn't got a clue and is ever so happy to smirk and chuckle and glance at admin as they slightly grin at one another and nod their head once, like "yeah, we knew we'd break her down eventually". I am completely numb but have too many feelings all at the same time. So maybe I'm going to take a break from here a bit cause I just don't feel like myself, and don't want to make a total @ss out of myself here too. But I love all you ladies very much but I just got to regain feeling less upset before I post more. OH and I did send a letter to school saying that's it, I request Due Process. So, I guess I'll have that too look forward to losing as well but I have to try.


02-21-2007, 01:05 AM
If you have to take a rest from here, I am sure everyone will understand. However, I wish you would stay so that you will know that we all support and love you. You are doing your best in a very bad situation and you are not the first parent to be treated like that by a school system, I am embarassed to say. You sound like you got the wind knocked out of you. Give yourself a little time to recoup and recover, one thing I really love about you is your enthusiasm and the way rush in "where angels fear to tread". You are one of the bravest people I know.

Take care,

02-21-2007, 01:44 AM
Mili, I'm so sorry things went so badly. You are not a failure as a mother though...So many things you've shared here have proven that. You're dealing with people who are making no attempt to help your son or even understand how to help him. But you sure do understand your son much better than I understand my child and you're doing amazing things to help him deal with life. Search your posts here(well not on this thread!) and revisit all those triumphs! I don't have the research at my fingertips, but it has been often pointed out to me that parents, more than anyone else have the greatest impact on their children's lives. I know you're feeling low right now...wish I could cheer you up. Its very sad to think that these callous, unkind and downright rude people are running a school.

02-21-2007, 03:07 AM
aww, Mili. I'm so sorry to read about how it went.


02-21-2007, 12:04 PM
I hired an advocate for my son's emergency ARD. It was much more effective than me doing it alone. I feel like they do not take the parents serious so when the advocate walked in they took notice. I hired someone with a good reputation among the parents. It cost me more than I would have liked, but it was worth every penny.

I am sorry you are feeling so rotten Mili, but don't stay down too long. It is good to regroup. Remember God will take care of you and your family even when times get rough. Remember that you can call as many meetings, ARD's as you feel necessary. Do not give up. I think you are a great mom for standing up and being your son's advocate.


02-21-2007, 01:17 PM
mili, do not stop now, ok, take a breather, go out for walk, take deep breaths and look around to the world, it is still beautiful, the birds still chirping and spring is around the corner, time for the earth to revitalize.
clear your mind, smile to yourself, you are doing it for your son....
huge hugs!!!!

P.S. you said that you went with vince's father, did he say anything?

02-22-2007, 04:19 AM

It's been a long time since I last wrote, specifically because I was/am burnt out like you, but wanted to give you some encouragement. I do know how you feel, as I’m living it too. I spent 6 1/2 hours at mediation a few weeks ago trying anything to make the district change their mind about my daughter's placement recommendation and trying to get them to at least explain why this other school was more appropriate. I might support their position if I understood it.But I can’t. There’s just no way. You don’t just send a kid with autism to an emotional support classroom because the staff at the other school “is better trained to deal with behaviors” and say it’s because your child is supposedly “too dangerous to return to any placement in the district”. Maybe if the district would have sent home, I don’t know, one incident report that indicates how/when she’s been so dangerous that she can’t be returned, then maybe I’d understand. But they haven’t (I asked), and my guess is those reports don’t exist.

I may have found a killer attorney willing to take my case if she can’t arrange for someone closer. If it pans out I'll let you know (she’s rather famous, at least in educational circles – if you want the name, PM me), but if you're looking for free/reduced legal fees, look up "Public Interest Attorneys" and "Education" and see what you find.

I really wished I lived closer to you so I could go to these meetings with you. Districts are very skilled at making you feel like “teeny tiny itty bitty know-nothings” who want you to just shut up and “listen to the experts.” Yeah, like any one of them knows one thing about autism, except for what I’ve tried teaching them. Intimidation is their middle name, though, and they’re allowed to get away with it because they don't care and know they can wear us down. Standing up to them…mentally and physically exhausting, but worth it.

You’re not alone.

Take care,


02-24-2007, 01:20 AM
... I am completely numb but have too many feelings all at the same time. So maybe I'm going to take a break from here a bit cause I just don't feel like myself, and don't want to make a total @ss out of myself here too. ...

Mili - I so hope you are doing much better. Even if you have to put your fight with the school on hold for a while or even (gasp) 'retreat' it doesn't mean anything except just that. It's not just about you... lots of people 'lose' these battles all the time, especially in the war on special ed.
As far as your making an @ss out of yourself, you can do that here anytime.
I know in the past you have alwys been willing to have a good @ss laugh.
Consider this: you may have unconsciously done those things to stave off feeling the awful pain of defeat, the mind works in mysterious ways.
I know I sometimes have had bizarre reactions in situations where I don't want to face a situation. It's just a complicated form of avoidance, I think.
So stop being so fatalistic... Things will work out. (and if they don't, you can always 'pretend' they do :) )

02-28-2007, 06:05 PM

Here is a link to Wisconsin's Public Interest Attorney website:


Many attorneys are required to take a certain number of pro bono cases per year. Also, public interest attorneys usually do not charge a fee.

Good luck!


03-01-2007, 01:32 AM
Things will work out. (and if they don't, you can always 'pretend' they do :) )
TheaHA! Ok that was good.

Gynn, thank you for the link and letting me know you're sharing burn out with me so I don't feel alone, although I don't feel better knowing you feel unhappy too I sure don't mean that. I can't quit and won't, but I have to take time away, dunno how to explain it really, to regroup mentally. Make sure my focus and energy gets back to the correct area, Vince being understood at school, school understanding how he thinks and what he needs to learn instead of being babysat due to the behaviors they don't know what to do about, that impede his learning. I don't see that happening this year at all.

Thank you everybody.

03-14-2007, 06:49 PM
Yesterday and today, the Office of Civil Rights was investigating my son's school based on the VALIDITY they found in my complaints. They do not investigate Due Process type issues, but, are investigating what they have found to be compelling evidence of school RETALIATING against me. They came here from Illinois (Chicago) and I am in Madison. I have no idea how school will talk their way out of this one, I know they have now written statements that make me sound like 'the bad guy' and are blatantly lying. I don't know what will come of this, nothing for Vince or I, BUT, I hope a better future for other parents and kids, even if only in a small way.

I'll keep you all posted.

03-14-2007, 06:54 PM
Well, if nothing else, they will have the discomfort of being in the hotseat. To what extent, other than submitting the complaints, do you get to participate in the investigation?

03-14-2007, 09:25 PM
I've already done tons of correspondence and phone interviews, including one with an attorney assigned to the case there.

I feel somehow unsatisfied that school admin will be in the hotseat, it's not enough or rather it's not a 'win'...the fact that a huge state organization like OCR would see my side enough to investigate them is validating, but even more so would be school being proven as retaliating against concerned parents, and prevented from doing so from now on...Vince will only be there a couple more months. But I'm just, I dunno, STUCK on this issue and many others, and can't and won't be unSTUCK until I know I've exhausted all avenues to justice. Which, from what little I know about justice, is not likely, but it 'could' happen.

03-14-2007, 09:36 PM
I've already done tons of correspondence and phone interviews, including one with an attorney assigned to the case there.

I feel somehow unsatisfied that school admin will be in the hotseat, it's not enough or rather it's not a 'win'...the fact that a huge state organization like OCR would see my side enough to investigate them is validating, but even more so would be school being proven as retaliating against concerned parents, and prevented from doing so from now on...Vince will only be there a couple more months. But I'm just, I dunno, STUCK on this issue and many others, and can't and won't be unSTUCK until I know I've exhausted all avenues to justice. Which, from what little I know about justice, is not likely, but it 'could' happen.

That's why I said if nothing else. I don't have much faith in the justice system and while I certainly hope this will bring some good for Vince and others, I don't know how likely that will be. School's are good at generating "data" and making things look differently than they are, or promising and complying with "fixes" that do nothing at all, outside of making it look like its been taken care of.

03-16-2007, 01:25 AM
I get a suspiciously 'nice' letter from the director of student services (who banned me and facilitated aka destroyed every IEP and the school year). It basically said gee, wow, you want the IEP explained, ok, sure no problem, tell us when. Mind you, this is the day after the 2 day investigation. So, I responded:

I cannot imagine there would be any progress or productivity or focus on my trying to understand the IEP, with yourself as the facilitator. I'm still no closer at all to understanding what Vince does at school all day, why he's about to enter sixth grade yet academically would not be able to pass second grade despite no intellectual problems.

Due to the extreme stress of past IEP's with you as facilitator, I just cannot, for medical reasons at this point, be enclosed in a room with you or anyone else I do not feel safe around...I can define safe if you like, but don't want to unless doing so will cause to agree to create a positive environment in which I can at last have my son's IEP explained to me. Unsafe people would be yourself, *****, and since she always shouts in my face and gets so close her boobs touch mine, ******.

As I stated at the last IEP I have been very ill as I stated when ****** asked in the beginning of the meeting. Since I'm stating I need (not want, need) a positive environment in which I can feel safe, I suppose it's reasonable to tell you why. albeit personal. The reasons I cannot continue to intentionally put myself in such stressful environments and situations, is my worsening dysautonomia and MVP, made so much worse by stress (look it up on the internet if you doubt it) for which I am at my limit for medication, and fear both heart surgery and death even more so. I'll get you a doctor's note if you think I'm lying. Usually, MVP isn't a big deal, but mine has been worsening since this school stress began, after being stable for a decade.

I really have to (not want to) meet in an environment where I can feel safe and as little stress as possible. I see no reason for you to be at a meeting to explain the IEP to me, school and I have never been FURTHER from a cooperative relationship than since you've been facilitator. Ask *****, who used to tell me I was her favorite parent to meet with.

You dismissed the last meeting with no reschedule. You are aware I have asked all year, to have the IEP explained to me. Which IEP is currently being implemented, I don't even know? The new one? ***** will not answer that either, she is his case manager and my contact.

So, I see no reason why, other than critical or necessary staff, anyone attend a meeting to explain the IEP to me. Critical staff would be ************** and his certified RDI consultant to be my voice/communicator at the meeting. I won't be any better at a future meeting than I was at the last with you as the facilitator, I'll again get stuck on a topic, rather than being able to speak what I want to really say. You claim to be an autism expert so you should clearly understand what happened to me last time, and what I need to succeed at a meeting, and what makes me fail. With safe persons in the IEP, I can meet any day any time. To be honest the person I feel most safe with, is ***********, this mess wouldn't exist if he were still here. He'd help my son, just like last time.

If school will only explain the IEP by putting me under stressful conditions, I'll just have to and will continue to ask ******, via email, all my questions - even though she has ignored every email for weeks. Which I will soon be reporting when I know what agency handles that.

I want to point out strongly, that if my fifth grade son had a fifth grade education instead of being 3+ years behind, I wouldn't have to understand what's going on at school. Why would I? I am entitled to understand his IEP, he is entitled to an appropriate education, at grade level in the general curriculum...and recess (which I also had to fight for, for Pete sakes).

03-20-2007, 09:09 AM
Hello Milivica


Breezsha, Reuben, Alice, Hazel and Melee at a Lake a week or so ago.

I burned the tip of my finger, picking yummy crispy skin off roast meat as it was cooking tonight. Am still painting pics, only 4 months till our overseas holiday.


03-20-2007, 02:05 PM
Peta! Hi hi hi hi hi!!! Wow it's been a long time. OMG, that pic in the upper right of Melee with her dress and hair blowing in the breeze, looks like a perfect pic to turn into a sculpt art (I hope that's the name of your art you invented). The texture of the trees, leaves, ground, the dress and hair blowing all in 3-d like your art looks.

What a nice break from a stressful topic seeing your kids! I remember about your holiday, how fun, Australia right? You'll have to pop over to Lara's house, hee hee.

So, post more, what's up with you, Peter, all the kids.


03-28-2007, 06:37 AM
Busy here. Our country right now has a raging debate happening which is deviding our society. Protest marches in towns and cities up and down the country. Our Government is pushing through law to make it illegal to smack children. Even a light tap on the hand or the leg will become a criminal offence and prosecuted as domestic violence. 83% of the population dont want this law. Consequently we are seeing people and families take to the street. People who have never been on a protest march in their life are coming out against the govt...... But it will become law anyhow as we have 63 politicians who believe they know what is best for the people. So the smacking debate aside..many are outraged at the abuse of democracy and how this is becoming law. I dont agree with smacking, but I abhour the state interference in families lives so I am organising the protest rally for the city near me (with a hand full of others). Its a bigger job than I anticipated and the whole thing is heated and emotionally charged.


03-28-2007, 08:08 AM
Hmmm, so are kids allowed to smack parents (that happens in the US a lot I hear) and I mean older kids physically stronger than their parents, not wee ones.

What the heck are they going to do with all the parents that smacked, or whose angry kid lied about being smacked? That's a pretty scary law. I don't agree with hitting a child, but a law like that can get outlandish.

There was a woman in the states once, who I remember was arrested and did jail time, over a year or some long amount like that for smacking her teen age son in the face in a mall after he'd called her a b!tch. I doubt I would do that cause taking away privileges works so much better, but, if caught off guard or overstressed, yes, I could see myself do that.

The son felt so bad, was on tv crying about losing his mom for so long and how he wished he'd never have called her that, it was all his fault, etc...

03-29-2007, 08:16 AM
This is exactly what is causing the problem. It is badly written law too, and rushed through. We also have a law called the domestic violence act which states that when an incident is reported and the police are called - when they get there, if there is a witness to an assault to and admission of assault they must make an arrest, remove the alleged offender and take them to the police station to process and charge. The police have no abilty to use discretion. Like traffic laws allow for police to use discretion i.e. let someone off with a warning and not charge. As soon as we get this new law, a smack (even a tap on the hand will be classed as an 'assault' and come under the domestic violence act).

So you can imagine - at the beach a 6 year old repeatedly kicks sand in the babys face, is warned twice, and kicks again, dad smacks the childs leg. This is noticed and maybe even captured on a cell phone by a member of the public and the police are called. Dad admits the assault, when faced with the images on the cell phone - he has to be arrested, cuffed and taken away in the police car. Also if mum stands by hubby, the child will be seen as 'at risk' and removed to temporary foster care. And may or may not be returned at a later date. If the fathers is found guilty and refuses to attend parenting courses or says he will do it again, for the mother to have her child back she will need to leave the relationship to 'protect' the child. We know this stuff will happen because they are already happening, the difference is right now the parents can use a defence in court called section 59 which allows them to use reasonable force. A jury decides if the force was reasonable. A smack generally is, a piece of wood around the head is not. This new law removes section 59 so that parents have NO legal defence for using ANY level of physical correction.

GET THIS - including removing a child to time out if they dont want to go. You will only legally be able to put a child in time out if they go willingly. You may use physical force to save a child from injury or if they are causing a disturbence (knocking all the packages off the shelf at the grocery store, you could take them outside). The key wording is you may not use any physical force against a child for the purposes of correction. So 80% of people are unlikely to be charged seeing as smacking and time-out happens indoors. But

You can imagine pissing your neighbour off - he'll dial the cops
Marriage break up - dial the cops
Getting back at someone - call the cops, you saw them smack a child.
How about a 12 year old annoyed he has to clean his room - phones the police? Angry teens wanting out? This is going to be abused and misused. Our court syste will be clogged and good parents criminalised. Imagine getting a conviction for smacking yoru sons bum in the supermarket and forever having on your record "Child Assault"?

And we can do NOTHING about this until next election and our opposition party while comdemning the law to be, have made no commitment to repeal this law that undermines families and hands all the power to children. People are going to snitch on each other, and you better be careful about what your children tell the teacher.

Next on the agenda is HATE speech legislation that will limit freedom of speech. Any pastor that comes out against controversial topics like homosexuality, abortion, prostitution and promotes this publically (the church view) will leave themsleves open to arrest. Even if its just in his church and speaking to his congregation. In the last 3 years our govt has legalised prostitution so they can tax hookers, sanctioned gay marriage (although its called a civil union) and the minority party who holds big power in our govt wants to legalise marjuana.

After hate speech, within ten years I would say it will be near impossible or illegal to home school. The govt do not want kids recieving anything other than state education. It is called a nanny state. It's where the govt knows best and their will is imposed on the population. They recently made it illegal to smoke in the workplace and in public places like restaurants, cafe and bars. In NZ now at 10.30 and 3pm the back streets of cities have workers file out to smoke outside. You see all these guys in suits etc hanging around outside to smoke. Weird. All these things is 'for the good of the people' Tyranny for the good of the people is the worst kind of oppression.

It is sickening the way the state are slowly erroding our rights and implementing failed ideologies and making major social engineering laws.

I hate it :(

04-25-2007, 11:29 PM
I just got out of jail. School played me like a fiddle, got me all upset cause I'm sick thru to my heart to hear my son keeps spending time in the solitary room, alone, because of his 'behaviors', today once again he was in there so long he fell asleep. I asked for an explanation (after school when Vince got into the car in tears), I was patronized, eventually a door was shut on my finger intentionally at which time I yelled and sort of bounced from sore spot to sore spot (being banned all this time still, my son not even knowing what 1 X 1 = even though he's being passed into 6th grade, being locked in a room alone so long he falls asleep). Anyhow, the police were called. At least 4 squads showed up from 2 different stations. They asked me if I hit anyone (no) hit anything (no) threw anything (no), I didn't even swear. I tend to talk loudly and passionately when my kid is locked in a room instead of taught. Right before I got loud, I'd asked his case manager (Adolf) how the new BIP was being implemented, where is the RDI on his IEP in the decision to lock him in a room, in the decisions to prevent him from becoming so out of hand that he has to go into the room, she said, "Look, we just wrote the RDI objectives into the IEP in school language because YOU wanted it there, I'm not trained in RDI. I don't know how to do RDI!"

I told one of the two staff that I walked away from the room with (who is the vice principal and who used to be wonderful before her promotion and is now pregnant) I told her Karma is really something, you better hope your baby doesn't have autism, cause you could never it, plus, be put through what you all have put me through just trying to help my kid.

And they said I had said terrible things to her about her baby to the cops.

The cops told me I wouldn't be arrested. Then said I'd be booked and released. Then, when the seargant who was in my house about a year ago, that I filed a complaint against for yelling at me about what a failure as a mother I was (for those who remember all the problems with my neighbor) when he realized it was 'me' in the school, he told the cop talking to me I was to go to jail after all. Mind you, no one ever told me I had to leave the school, or that I was being too loud, or any of the numerous things I'm out of touch with but would have stopped doing, that got me arrested for disorderly conduct. So anyhow the seargant I complained against last year when he was just a cop, decided I was going to jail, stated I was an "ongoing problem" to the other cops and to my husband, whoooo, was asking to see me. He was outside the school. They wouldn't let him.

The cop that drove me to the station was very respectful to me. The others, not so much. I about exploded having to go to the bathroom, there was an open toilet which I would have used, except I had to do more that just pee. I asked for a bathroom, the cop chuckled and pointed at the open toilet in the room and said, "Right there" chewing his food.

The ladies in jail with me were real nice. They finally got me to stop crying, and weren't mean at all, so yes I liked them. And there is no soap at all in jail by the way, not even after you use the bathroom.

I'm still in shock. My 9 year old daughter used her savings to bail me out. Vince is just flipping out, he'll just get in more and more trouble at school now cause he doesn't want to work with his case manager, who put me in jail. So, school wins, Vince loses, and I guess that's the end. School said they're going to get restraining orders against me, I won't even be allowed to pick up or drop off my kids. I can't even imagine what this will balloon into.

I called my friend who is a doctor and has a child with autism, I was hoping she could somehow organize all the moms in school with kids with autism, so we could sort of be a unified group. But honestly, I don't see that happening.

Mostly, the cops did everything possible to upset a person on the spectrum, I can't imagine in a million years how a lfa would have coped without getting charge after charge after charge added on. I was lucky, I realized I was an invisible zero in their eyes, no way would they see my side at all, only school's, and school lied...said they're all afraid of me, etc. Don't you have to say a verbal threat or something to be considered someone to fear??? I've never thrown so much as a tissue, or slammed a door (although one was slammed on my finger) and I didn't even cuss, yes I was loud, not intentionally, and they too were loud, but only me being loud counts. So, school and the seargent will I suppose rest well tonight for sure, they sure got me back and it worked, I'm completely whipped. Law, IEP's, kids rights, none of that means a thing if you cannot communicate in nt. I just, I just thought somehow, like there'd be a happy ending I'd create for the kids with autism at that school. Now there's just a mess for me, and my family, that I created (even if by accident), that I let others create by giving them ammunition (me being loud). Proper channels did nothing, improper channels did nothing. Vince gets nothing, just locked in a room till he falls asleep. Andrew his classmate gets nothing, just chews his arm to bits as adolf says "he has to get used to losing" during social skills time. My friend's daughter, so smart at a little over 1 she could identify flowers and corrected my friend and said "forsynthia" when my friend said it was a flower, who now despite her immense intelligence can't carry on a conversation.

I can't make sense of anything, really I can't. I wish I could go back in time, and die in my mother's womb and go straight to heaven. This is too hard. And no I'm totally not suicidal, just wishing kind of like on It's a Wonderful Life.

Mother's Heart
04-25-2007, 11:55 PM
oh mili. I can't even say how crummy this is. I don't know what to say, except I'm incredibly sorry this has just kept on going and going and come to this....I'm so sorry. How very very discouraging. Sometimes the stupidity of this world just stinks.

04-26-2007, 01:56 AM
Mili, I just don't even know what to say...words can't express how flabergasted I am over this...it just doesn't make any sense. Evil, just plain evil. Can you move? I mean to a new town. It sounds like you will never be treated fairly in this town ever if the cops and the school are conspiring against you.

Trying to find the right words to help you feel better, but can't think what would. I'm just so sad for you and Vince and little Andrew too.

04-26-2007, 02:31 AM
Okay, what about a Virtual Online Charter School? Here's a link to one:


There just has to be something else out there for Vince besides this prison he has been going to.

04-26-2007, 09:16 AM
"the school played me like a fiddle" you got it right, Mili

this people knows what to do to upset you. you have two options home school vince or leave town, hopefully to a better educational system if you find one.

yes, they can talk loud but, if you do !!!! YOU are intimidating them.

huge hugs

:( :mad: :(

04-26-2007, 10:45 AM
Hay Milli have you ever told them they are discriminating against you because of YOUR disability. That might get something going.

04-26-2007, 05:56 PM
They had him in the time out room (solitary room) alone again for over three hours today. No one notified me or dh, and they never have. I have to pull him from school.

Who do I call? I don't want him to be truant, I don't want any more problems. I don't know what to do?

Vince bit adolf today, I can't have that going on. I have no idea what to do. He's saying this was the worst day of his life, and that he wants to die to me, to his therapist, to his dad. He's so upset.

Tonight, I'm going to fake a call in front of him, to adolf, and apologize to her and pretend she did to me, I'm going to fake a make up call. What can I do to fix his heart, that's all I can think of for now. I know he loves her in some ways, or has an attachement, he's been around her all year after all. I don't want him to not love her, it's great he does...but I don't want him shut up in a room, I don't want someone that's actions are detrimental in charge of my son. It's like I'm enabling a relationship that is abusive to him.

The Pogue
04-26-2007, 06:03 PM
3 hours???????????????????????????????????????????

04-27-2007, 04:18 AM
I have to pull him from school.

That is exactly what you should do. I can't believe those #$%^heads got you put in jail when this whole thing is their own fault! How the #$%^ did they expect you to react?! You've spent basically the whole year fighting this battle, and Vince's school year has basically been wasted. I totally think you should pull him out. He'd be so much better off at home. He doesn't deserve to go through this crap and nor do you.

Mother's Heart
04-27-2007, 11:22 AM
boy would that look bad on them if it happened to get publicized that they locked the poor autistic kid in a room by himself for 3 hours! God only knows what ELSE they are doing in frustration/desperation or pure ol' "we could care less and we have the power to do whatever we want."

them having to isolate him for that long of a period of time merely highlights THEIR inability to manage his behaviour and inability to teach him. THEY have failed. THEY have FAILED!!!
You need to fire them.

Mother's Heart
04-27-2007, 11:24 AM
do you really think it's a good idea to fake a call for Vince? I know he's hurting...and I know you're hurting for him...but something about that idea makes me feel giztchy. (i made that word up, just now. :) )
You know him best and know better than I do..but I'd hate for it to hurt him in the long run.

Mother's Heart
04-27-2007, 11:26 AM
You know, if they've banned YOU from the premises...maybe you could appoint a surrogate...to go in for frequent observations. I guess this idea's too late, since now it's to the point of he can't remain there.

Is Carmen in the same school?

04-27-2007, 12:35 PM
Mili, that link I put in my previous post is to a wisconsin charter school that teaches online courses. You may be able to transfer Vince and withdraw him from this school. I don't know if you can bring child abuse charges against the school or not or if you should go to the press...you've had enough trouble already for sure. What is troubling is how you will be able to withdraw him from school if you are not allowed any contact with the school. If he is removed from school without withdrawing him, you may face charges for that. I know here, the schools can report poor attendance to the authorities and send the parents to court for not sending kids to school. Let me see if I can find some resources for you and I'll get back to you.

04-27-2007, 06:08 PM
Anyone heard from Mili at all since she last posted here?

The Pogue
04-27-2007, 09:03 PM
If she doesn't post, I'll call her tomorrow.

04-27-2007, 09:37 PM
Very concerned for her.

04-27-2007, 10:32 PM
How did I miss this yesterday, I kept wondering what isabelle's post meant.
So sorry to hear this happened, it's unbelievable. What did they actually charge you with when they put you in jail? Do you have to go to court? Who called your hubby out to the school and how did he get there the same time as police?
Sorry to ask so many questions... it seems like too much to even imagine.
Hang in there, and remember you need to hold yourself together to help support Vince in his hard time... take care.

04-28-2007, 11:30 AM
I'm sorry if I worried anyone. I just don't know what to post.

I though about Pamster last night and all morning. The terror she must feel every time Jackie hurt her (terror for him not herself).

And as always, thought about Danny and Isabelle.

I was informed school was being 'nice' to me, Vince could have wound up in some detention home for boys (I forgot what he called it) had the school decided to press charges for him assaulting the staff, and for Vince kissing the teacher (to try and make her happy and get things back to normal) he could have been charged with a sexual assault.

I can't send Vincent back to school until there is a system in place to keep others safe, and him safe. He has everything to lose by going back.

My arrainment is Monday, that's when I find out my charges. Apparently, my current charge of disorderly conduct is not something solid, that is, when I go to court I could get charged with lots more things. I can't afford a lawyer, but am not indigent enough to get a free one.

What the heck am I going to do, with Vincent's aggression? I am so upset, that he hurt staff physically, no matter what his reasoning. To the outside observer, he is a stereotype aggressive black youth, and, if he is ever put in with a group of actual aggressive peers, they will eat him alive.

I have absolutely no ability to orchestrate press or media on this, or do anything but run around like a mad woman searching for answers for my son. I could care less about the jail thing, matter of fact last night my ma asked if they read me my rights and I realized they never did! But for all I know, in all my confusion, they realized they didn't read me my rights and had me sign a paper saying they did (I signed several papers). While in police custody (prior to jail) the deal was, answer everything they ask or go to jail, no one ever said I had a right to remain silent or read me my rights, if they did, I know my brain well enough to know I'd have thought the word "Miranda" which I never did.

I feel as desperate for Vince as when I first was told he was autistic, autism was incurable, and I should put him on a waiting list for a good 'home' cause those places have a long waiting list so he might not get in until he's 16 (he was 4 then and it was the first time I'd heard the word autism).

I took him for a psych eval yesterday, I felt to keep him from school, I needed a doctor to agree this was a good idea, or somehow my intentions (Vince not hurting staff again) would get twisted, like that I'm trying to punish school or something. He bit, grabbed throats, kicked, staff...who...are now sometimes smaller than him. I just can't have him doing that, no matter the provocation, no matter the autism, he will be GONE forever locked away and drugged and invisible in a way even worse than being autistic. Being in jail reminded me of the feeling of nothingness and emptiness and not feeling I was a human being, of the institutions I was in (almost 30 years ago) The shrink prescribed a drug, adderal, he said it would work for impulsivity (the lashing out and biting and aggression).

2 Keep yoU

i Drug yoU

b Cause I

Love You

I was talking to the RDI consultant, who again has been a rock for me. I told her I was going to the library to study what 'anger' actually is, to try and teach Vince how to manage his. I don't want him to be a self mutilating anger supressing self hater, like I was. Supression is not enough. She said anger is in degrees, and asked if I had that. I said no, and realize that Vince and I must not get the 'warning' degrees that most get. If I'm angry, I'm ANGRY. Same for Vince, there's no mildly irritated (I'm just guessing that mildly irritated is a degree of anger).

I wasn't angry at school, I was like an overflowing volcano and wanting answers to all this craziness of this year, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM, REALLY? If it's me, tell me what to do and not do, if it's you let me help you help my kid.

I can't stop crying, nightmares, etc.... If answers can be found for Vince and others on the spectrum in all this mess, I welcome it with open arms.

What the heck does a lfa do, if a cop is questioning him and he locks up and can't answer, I assume just get charge after charge piled up as he/she 'doesn't cooperate' despite it being totally neurological.

Autism, the last frontier of discrimination in every facet of life, legally endorsed.

Does anyone have a copy of that poem I wrote a long time ago called What Kind of Mother Are You? It was on the old forum, my puter crashed a while back, I really need it.

04-29-2007, 12:55 AM
Police pulled up at our house today, I was served with three restraining orders (or maybe it's one order filed by three school staff, adolf, the assoc prin, and a lady in admin that I really still don't know her position. I remember once at a past IEP she told me that I was a parent so I should parent, they were teachers so I should let them teach. I said I would if he were actually learning.

So, I have 2 court dates in the next week. One on Monday to find out all of my criminal charges and one this Friday for my restraining orders.

The good thing, in the restraining orders, adolf states to the cops she said to me she doesn't know how to do RDI, nor does she do it, and that's when I became very agitated. Yet, in a letter to Disability Rights for the State of Wisconsin, the Director of Student Services at Vincent's school says they have gotten training in RDI. So, now there's proof school has lied to these agencies I asked to help.

Overall, the stuff staff said about me to get the restraining order was correct so that's good they didn't blatantly create lies, just some deceptions and definitely some misquotes. No where does it say I swore or threatened anyone with violence or anything. I was told today, that a woman who just had a baby was walking through Target, and she and her husband started arguing, someone must have called the cops. Fine. But when they got there, they told HER that she was going to be arrested for disturbing the peace and threatened to take custody of her new baby. I mean, really, just insane.

My nightmares are so strong, I dreamed I was wandering through the school unable to find Vincent, no one would tell me where he was even though everyone would smile at me, seemingly completely unaffected by all the trails and splats of his blood that were everywhere. I looked everywhere, even on the roof. No one felt there was any urgency, it's like everything was fine and dandy and normal for them, while I was (for some reason) wearing a very heavy winter coat. Walking and sobbing and searching frantically. I eventually passed out from the fear stress and heat, while running, sliding on my front and side of my head on the linoleum in the hallway. There was a hole in my head where I landed, now my blood was all over too. The office lady (who I like in real life) came out and said, "I probably shouldn't do this" cause it will make the staff mad if she's nice to me, and gave me a bag of ice. Then the other office lady (who I also like in real life) layed down next to me, but my blood didn't stick to her even though she layed in it, and she said she'd wait with me till I felt better. But I never found Vincent, he vunerable and lost in there and I couldn't find him, and I couldn't rescue him.

If anyone knows of any lawyers, or somehow has a friend of a friend that can help me (in Madison Wisconsin), I sure could use it. I know I'll need a lawyer for sure now, I have no idea what this means for us financially.

04-29-2007, 03:33 AM
HUGS to you, Mili. I'm sorry I'm pretty speechless right now. It's all just so terrible, I don't know what to say. I can't help you with lawyers and I can't help too much with advice right now except to say that I'm thinking of you as is everyone else and you're right... something good must come out of all this terrible pain and humiliation. Take care of yourself there.

04-29-2007, 11:21 AM
Thank you Lara. I am scared about what my charges will be tomorrow, and about the future money situation this will cause.

But Carmen sure gave me relief this morning, she said now that I was keeping her brother home from school, she's happy. I said "why?" cause that kind of surprised me, I thought she might be jealous. She said, "because now he won't get put in that room any more."

A lot of my grief over all this is how it is effecting my kids, ya know? These are not the childhood memories I want for them.

Vince said he was up at 2am, that he was thinking about adolf over and over and couldn't shut his brain off.

I know they baited him to get so wild, but the sad fact is, no matter what others do, if not in physical self defense then you cannot hurt others. Fair or not, that's how the world is, and if you aren't mr. popular you can't ever get out of trouble or accountability. Kids with disabilities have more accountability than nt's, who can get away with stuff cause they understand how, and are not constantly monitored by adults. Kids with disabilities are shoved in a room together to not impede the learning of others, are less able to block out distraction than nt's, yet are all in a room together. Some self abuse, other kids see that, and it's like they just have to go on with their day. Did Vince ever get 'counseling' when he was so distraught to see his friend with autism bite his arm bloody in 2 places? Of course not. None of our kids do. And our kids that self mutilate, are they kept from becoming to that level of frustration? Of course they're not.

Like Vince, my head is of course perseverating on this nonstop. What am I going to do, to get my son into this world in such a way that he is a part of it, and has FRIENDS to help him be in the world despite any social short comings. That is what has SAVED me in all this. My 2 friends, Vincent's case manager who has been a TRUE friend to him so a true friend to me, and his RDI consultant who I'd be losing my mind entirely without. And dh (who took a long sebatical and some mean jerk that looked like him was living here, know what I mean?) he is my best friend again like when I was 19.

The best thing I heard so far, was when Vincent's case manager had told our RDI consultant that she has noticed real changes in Vincent, that he's so much better now than last year. It's harder for me to see being with him every day. But that just made my night when I heard that.

I wonder what the maximum sentence in Wisconsin is for criminal disorderly conduct 947.01 is the number of the charge, that's how I know it's criminal and not civil or what ever the milder one is. I might look into that today, it makes me calmer to know worst case scenario.

No matter what though, and as much as I hate all this intense constant anxiety, I feel I have enough evidence to sue the school for saying they were trained and doing RDI, then recanting - both statements in writing. The IEP is a legal document I understand. And what about all Vince has lost? All the times he is doing things other than learning? RDI is not a stinkin therapy, it's life. It's an abbreviation for reciprocity, flexible thinking, episodic memories, ongoing appraisal, emotion sharing, experience sharing, all of those undefinable things of social give and take nt kids have that ours don't. Vince needs that manually given to him, manually taught to him, until it becomes automatic just like with nt's. So he can have that development, he now lacks. Not so he can be 'nt' per say. It's about the growth, development, that he needs, that will make his life easier ten fold. If we lived in a deaf community, I wouldn't hesitate to teach him sign, doesn't mean I'm trying to make him deaf, just the opposite actually.

If I've been posting like a lunatic, it's cause I feel crazy, or crazed. But I'm hanging in there as well as I can. Having kids around all the time, you have to for them, ya know?

04-29-2007, 11:29 AM
tis true, seems like folks with disabilities are always held more accountable then others.
ALso holds true for people with any sort of disadvantage...lack of money, unemployed etc... sad state of affiars.
Please, please do what ever you can to keep him out of a psych setting. As much as our kids may need to be around other kids for socializing, a psych setting is not the way to go.

04-29-2007, 11:32 AM
Yes, you're right about that. That's why I took him to an eval friday. The shrink said he was very well behaved, and he didn't at any time feel he had to set limits on him.

04-29-2007, 02:08 PM
We (as a people) are always expecting others to conform to our behavior patterns, even those who we know have a hard time doing that, rather than acting with compassion. Then on top of that we expect them to be able to behave themselves 100% when they are upset, eventhough we are reacting to their behavior as if they are the same as us, which is absurd.

When I see an escalating behavior issue with my clients I make it my responsibilty to change my behavior to help them. It often dosn't take much to shift the situation.
My favorite example is this...I probably told you it before. THere was a big code, patient arguing, situation escalating badly, staff trying to restrain taking the patient down, lots of physical activity. Suddenly one of the staff yells that the diamond has fallen from her engagement ring. Everyone stops what they are doing and gets on their hands and knees looking for the stone, including the patient. So you have to say.... if the staff had responded differently to the patient to begin with... would a code need to have been called?

Vince is ok at the evaluators office because he was greeted by someone who did not have a negative expectation of him. Vince needs a fresh start and some folks who have better sense and compassion.

04-29-2007, 04:52 PM
Yes, exactly...all the things you said, yes that's what I was saying/meaning exactly. I remember that story about the diamond too.

04-30-2007, 01:16 AM
i can't do anything for you and makes me angry that you have to go through all this because they don't want to bother to learn different ways to communicate with our autistic children :mad: :mad:

04-30-2007, 07:40 AM
Just checking in and can not believe all the stuff that has been happening. Its like a script from a movie or TV show. Only there is no Alan Shaw and Denny Crane to take it all to court and save the day.

I dont know enough about the American judiciary or educational sustem to offer any very helpful advice. But for goodness sakes Mili, can't you look into homeschooling? You should not have to deal with these people. I dont think school is the best place for your son.

Hopefully the charges will be thrown out.


04-30-2007, 08:49 AM
OMG!!!! :eek: Oh Lisa, you should never have been arrested, what the did sounds illegal to me, you should have had your rights read to you and this ball of charges they are trying to hit you with need to be thrown out! What disgusting abuse of the law this is...I am so sorry you're going through so much trouble, it has to get better soon. Stay cool and get your side out to the judge, he will listen hopefully. If not let us know, I will help you get the press involved, I am GOOD at writing letters that motivate people, I bet Montel Williams would be interested, or my local news who is an affiliate with CNN, wrongful imprisonment is just the beginning too, you've had to deal with total creeps from that school, and all in the hope of getting yoru son the proper education.

I understand it, I feel it myself too, Jackie is in fifth grade and going on 6th and can't really show us he can even read yet. I don't know if he can read or not, but he is doing basic math. I feel so horrible for you right now, I just can't imagine how scary that being in jail must have been for you. ((((hugs)))

Just know we love you Lisa, no matter what happens, you are NOT a criminal here. These people are breaking the law by not enforcing Vince's IEP. That should be what people look at, not how you look or appear, it's all meant to be teamwork for getting the best care for VINCE...NOTHING other then what the law says the schools have to provide for. Free and Appropriate Public Education. Hang in there, this just has to blow over soon. I would see about homeschool Vince, maybe that's the best thing to do. I don't know what the answers are. But I know I am upset you've had to be put through all this nonesense. :(

04-30-2007, 12:28 PM
They are using the legal system to retaliate against you and to keep form having to follow the IEP. You need to sue THEM! This is so wrong on so many levels. I wish I could help. Good luck.

04-30-2007, 04:04 PM
(((((((((((((((Mil)))))))))))))))))). :(

Oh, honey...I am just jumping into this after seeing the post king for legal advice, and I'm not a lawyer, nor do I know any, but I do know that some will take a case pro bono, which means you wouldn't have to pay.

I am so sorry you're having to endure this, darlin'. I can imagine you're terrified. Keep in mind, though, that once the court hears all the facts, it's very likely the case will be dismissed. It sounds like you were just sticking up for Vince, which is what any good mom would do. I would hope a sympathetic attorney would insist on making the system pay for this $h!t. :mad: :(

Hang in, sweetie. We're all here for you!



The Pogue
04-30-2007, 07:29 PM
My legal advice:
Don't skip up to the podium, and the proper way to address a judge is "yes sir" or "yes your honor", not "yup, shore do".

04-30-2007, 08:17 PM

04-30-2007, 08:22 PM
I'm on the phone with Keggy RIGHT NOW!

Pogue is the BEST! Glad you made it home safe, Keg just told me.

All the charges were dropped, I couldn't believe it. I actually did a quick kneel and sign of the cross and thanked God.

Pogue and I ate, window shopped, and she had to go to drive waaaaay back to her state.

I'm so relieved, I can't believe it.

Now just one more court date this friday for my restraining orders.

I'm just speechless, what a day!

04-30-2007, 08:27 PM
As it should have been, that's awesome! (((hugs)))

04-30-2007, 09:08 PM
kudos for le poque! ;) :) :D

way to go Mili, celebration all around :) :D :)

what's the future for vince's education? :confused:

05-01-2007, 10:36 AM
My brain was a little 'full' yesterday, I want you all to know I have read every lovely post of support and appreciate them all. I feel better than I would expect to and I know it's because of all the moral support, that has been an incredible feeling.

Peglem, the online school looked great, I did check out that site, but currently I'm working with his RDI consultant, have been given a new list of objectives, which I can implement into the homework school sent home. For now, it dawned on me, I can simply ask school to provide his missing work - or rather I ask his state case manager, to contact school and ask for the work.

Disability Rights of Wisconsin had a meeting about this yesterday, and felt they couldn't do anything at this point. I'm calling them today, I must have left out details that were important. I can't imagine why they couldn't help. The woman I've spoken to there is awesome, they have not been some cold bureaucracy or anything.

I'm also going to contact this one woman from CESA who has an aspie daughter that is a lawyer. I have no idea what type of law she practices, or if she is even in the area, but I'd want no other lawyer than an aspie, if I could find one.

I don't feel as horrible as I think I should, I mean I'm far from jovial about all this but with Vince here it's a relief. I know what he's doing, how he's doing, etc... Plus being sick, he's been on the couch all morning, I'm glad if he had to get sick it's now when he wouldn't be at school anyhow. His throat is red as all get out, as was Carmen's, then mine. So not too surprised he got it too.

05-02-2007, 09:51 PM
Court tomorrow at 9am for my restraining order. I'm guessing the worst case scenario is a longer restraining order (this one is temporary). School will have their lawyers there, which cost more than anything I've asked for (an orientation and support form Vincent's RDI consultant).

I feel so eager for this to be over, but I'm really really nervous...but, I know where the place is, where to park, so that helps. I'm telling myself that if things get bad or scary or confusing, I'll just ask for time to get a lawyer, which, I am currently working on anyhow.

Legal Aide or what ever it was called for low income folks to get a lawyer at a lower cost, says we don't qualify. That's good news right? That means I'm well off?

Well please just send all of your wonderful vibes and prayers and wishes that the judge notices I didn't hit or throw or slam things or threaten anyone or cuss or even stomp my foot or fist, nothing. Yes I was loud, that is true. It was after school hours too, if that matters.

Ok I'm freaking a little, so, off to clean the rat cage, feed our 'zoo' here, and play some mind numbing free game on the puter.

Thank you all again,
I'd be losing my mind had it not been for so much support,

EDITED to say, court is Friday at 9am, somehow I thought today was Thursday. Also, the school's attorney called and left a message for me to call him about friday. I don't think I should. I'm not a lawyer. Anything he has to say to me, he can say in front of the judge. What do you all think? I looked him up online, I know who the school's law firm is cause I called them accidentally months ago.

Here he is:
***** *********(Associate) born April 26, 1972; admitted to bar, 1999, Minnesota; 2002, Wisconsin. Education: Luther College (B.A., 1994); Iowa State University (M.A., 1996); University of Iowa (J.D., with high distinction, 1999). Practice Areas: Litigation; Products Liability; Insurance Coverage; Employment Law.

Business Litigation
- Appellate
- Insurance & Reinsurance Litigation
Insurance & Reinsurance
Product Liability & Product Recalls

***** is an associate in the law firm of ******** in Madison. He practices primarily in the area of litigation. He handles product liability, construction defect and fire cases, as well as all manners of commercial litigation. He also represents clients on regulatory and litigation matters involving insurance company insolvency and insurance guaranty funds.

In addition to litigation, he works with manufacturers to assess and develop on-product warnings as well as instruction and user manuals for products. He also counsels manufacturers, distributors and retailers on Consumer Product Safety Act issues.

Before joining our firm, he practiced in the Minneapolis office of ********, where he defended manufacturers of all-terrain vehicles, snowmobiles, personal watercraft and institutional cleaning and laundry chemicals.

He is a member of the Defense Research Institute and the Litigation and Products Liability Sections of the American Bar Association. He received his B.A. from Luther College, his M.A. from Iowa State University, and his J.D., with high distinction, from the University of Iowa. Josh is licensed to practice in all the state and federal courts of Wisconsin and Minnesota, as well as the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.

She is a house wife with 2 kids, she received her GED in Illinois where she worked for Pizza Hut.

Ok, maybe I won't call. What do you all think? I want to avoid trouble, but not avoid standing up for what is right, and it was not right to file restraining orders against me.

05-03-2007, 12:21 AM
Hey what if I send him my email, so anything he says is in writing? I think I'll do that, but what do you all think? I don't want to go back and forth and negotiate, I mean I tried to communicate all year, now they want to talk?

I dunno what to do really. What is the 'psychology' of me contacting him, is that a good or bad thing? Does that show him I'm afraid of Friday (which I am) if I do, or that I want PEACE, which I do!

I won't agree to any restrictions if that's what he plans, I don't think I did anything wrong. I think I've showed great restraint all these months actually.

Ok let me know what you all think, I'm eager to hear. Bear in mind, my biggest thing is hoping Vince can end his school year AT school on a positive note. But that's not school's priority, I'm not sure what is, but it's not Vince - it's money or pride or something.

05-03-2007, 01:08 AM
keep in mind this may be totally wrong - but I think that since attys talk before the court date, if you are going solo no lawyer, then it is acceptable to talk to him, but since your charges were dropped what is there to really talk about? Do you need to be found guilty of a crime to have a restraining order, I'm not familiar with that. But if there are no criminal charges, I wouldn't worry too much about talking to him.
How about you call him and see what he wants, and then tell him you'll think about it and call him back later. Then post what he wants here and we'll tell you whether to answer or not!

05-03-2007, 01:48 AM
mili, from now on everything in writing, do not offer any information, just listen and if asked a question before answering you have to talk to your husband or think it over....or ask for more clarification, good luck!
honestly, they are done, why the lawyer wants to talk to you?
p.s., you are recovering your sense of humour LOL

05-03-2007, 09:05 AM
How about you call him and see what he wants, and then tell him you'll think about it and call him back later. Then post what he wants here and we'll tell you whether to answer or not!

I think this is a good idea.

05-03-2007, 09:51 AM
Ok, here was my email to him:

Dear Mr. *,

We received a phone message from you at our home, yesterday May 3, 2007. Our email is ****@yahoo.com . Please feel free to communicate via email regarding any concerns you called about.

Mr. & Mrs. *

05-03-2007, 09:54 AM
Good, I bet they don't contact you, they like it with it being verbal so they can manipulate the situation to their benefit. Good call on the reply Lisa. :)

05-03-2007, 10:09 AM
Thanks Pam. It sure was hard for me to make it that short. I always have so many points and thoughts it's hard to weed out the ones that aren't important and isolate the most important ones.

05-03-2007, 11:27 AM
Nice job, Mili!

05-03-2007, 01:13 PM
OK, here is the email response from the school's attorney:

Dear Mr. and Mrs. ***

Thank you for your email response. I called you for two reasons.

First, as you read in my May 1st letter to the Court, I had asked Judge **** to reschedule Friday's hearing to a time when no other hearings were scheduled so that we could ensure all parties could be heard in a single day. He declined to reschedule because the notice I served you with provided only for Friday, May 4 at 9:00 a.m. and, I assume, was concerned that we could not get word to you of a change. So, please be aware we are still scheduled for tomorrow at 9:00 for the injunction hearing.

Second, as indicated in my letter to you (also May 1), our goal is not to put you through an injunction hearing, but to ensure the safety and peace of mind of the teachers, administrators, staff and children at Stoner Prairie going forward. It is my understanding that you have abided by the terms of the Temporary Restraining Order ("TRO") since being served last weekend and, also, that you agreed with the Police not to enter onto the premises but to drop off your children at the corner. The TRO also includes no contact with Ms. (Adolf) or Ms. ***. It is this same arrangement that my clients wish to preserve through the end of June 2007, when their duties for the school year should be complete. There are adequate channels of communication for you to communicate with school without coming on the property and, to the extent any meetings need to be set up, they can be held at the nearby middle school.

If you are willing to agree to extend the terms of the TRO through the end of June, I will draft a stipulation and either meet with you or have it delivered to you to sign. We will then file it with the Court and the hearing can be adjourned.

Please let me know your intentions as soon as possible.


Ok, and here is my reply:

Dear Mr. ***,

We will follow the instructions on the TRO, and will attend court tomorrow.


Mr. & Mrs. ***

05-03-2007, 01:50 PM
Good answer. Why don't they want this to come before a judge? I think it should. It seems like the school has NO reason to ban you from campus, and the worse the judge can do is extend the RO through the end of June anyway.

05-03-2007, 02:54 PM
I think you should ask this lawyer who is legally responsible for the safety of your children when they are "dropped off at the corner" instead of being allowed to be dropped off in front of the school. It is ridiculous that you can't even bring your child to school.

The whole entire situation just blows my mind!!

05-03-2007, 05:46 PM
to drop off your children at the corner. The TRO also includes no contact with Ms. (Adolf) or Ms. ***. It is this same arrangement that my clients wish to preserve through the end of June 2007, when their duties for the school year should be complete. There are adequate channels of communication for you to communicate with school without coming on the property and, to the extent any meetings need to be set up, they can be held at the nearby middle school.

What's the matter with these people?! 'drop off your children at the corner'??? Do they not understand anything. Oh, I'm so angry. grrrrrrrrr

Wondering also what they mean by "no contact" with those two?
Does that mean only physical person to person contact or is it contact in any form... like phone, letter, email etc.?

05-03-2007, 05:48 PM

This might sound paranoid, but I was wondering if there is any way that the school staff would ever had known that you post here?

05-03-2007, 05:57 PM
(((((Mili)))) I do not come in here much these day's and just took a look, to say I am shocked is an understatement.:eek: Please know that we are thinking about you, huge hugs and prayers are winging there way over to you and yours from here.

I mentioned all this to Sean, told him the lady who sent the dog so he would know who I meant, dog sits to this day in the box you sent him in , he is swathed in a towel will send you a photo one day.

I wish there was more I could do but given you laws over in your country cannot offer any advice.

Will call back in here again tomorrow to see if you have posted any more.

((((HUGS))) Susanxx

05-03-2007, 07:11 PM
Lara, I'm not sure what no contact means either, I assume it means ANY contact even emails...the problem about that is, what to do when they contact me (which they have). Dropping them off 'at the corner' is not actually correct, I do so on the street in front of the school, I used to do that last year as well to avoid the traffic in the driveway/circle in front of the school at drop of pick up time, other parents do too, it doesn't effect my kids, so it's no biggie. Being banned from school all together is. And yes I've wondered now, what if school can read this. Well, the whole reason I've posted here is in desperation for my son, not anger or revenge at them. So I've thought of that now, but am not worried about it...know what I mean?

Sadge, when you get a chance, do me a favor and pm or email me your addy again. I am so moved that he likes that doggie so much, I would just love to send him another soft toy. It would be a total de-stresser for me. Remind me again what he likes, doggies with clothes, was that it? I remember he likes boxes to make houses with and so on, right?

Ok, I'm just kind of freaking out, tomorrow morning is the big day, I have some 'evidence' to print out and bring, to show that if anything I showed amazing restraint, not a lack of it. This has been one long year. I just want progress out of all this, positives I could not have imagined for Vince, then it'll all be ok.


The Pogue
05-03-2007, 10:52 PM
I wouldn't worry about anyone at school reading your words. While you have shared enough that anyone would recognize you, so what? Your love for your children, dedication to their education and development, and intelligence shine through for all to see. You've told your viewpoint honestly over and over again. Nobody can fault you for that.

Not one thing you've ever posted on these boards shows you to be anything other than a mother who wants the best for her children, and who is willing to go to great lengths to obtain it.

The school staff, on the other hand, are bound by confidentiality laws and ethical principles (ha!), prohibiting them from posting their side in any sort of forum. That's one way the system actually favors parents: We can say what ever we want about them publically (so long as its not slanderous), and they can't reciprocate. ;)

I am licensed in your state, and will be happy to serve as Vince's advocate in his IEP next fall. I'm pretty swamped now, and taking another day off this spring would really be pressing it, but next fall is a clean slate.

The Pogue
05-03-2007, 10:55 PM
p.s. No contact means just that: no contact via any means: telephone, person, or email.

I have obtained the name and telephone number of a professor at Whitewater, who specializes in functional behavioral analysis and behavior intervention plans.

05-04-2007, 08:30 AM
Awww Pogue, you're awesome. You sure are nice for a skinny chick with gas. Hee hee.

I'm nervous beyond words about this morning. Knowing I'll be sitting there, staff saying all kinds of lies to make me sound dangerous or whatnot. I'm not sure what they're plan is really, but I'm sure it's not to make me look like a concerned parent that's been shut out of her child's school life.

As long as it all works out in the long run for Vince, really I don't care what happens today, if it all works out for him then today will have been a success no matter what the result. Now if someone would just tell my stomach that, so it can get out of my throat.

05-10-2007, 04:15 AM
So, how did it go?

The Pogue
05-11-2007, 08:40 AM
Fe-Fe - I pasted an email from Mili on the hearing on this thread


05-16-2007, 01:45 AM
The email banter goes to and from school and I. I ask things, they ignore every question and reiterate how they have always and will always continue to provide FAPE.

Since I have decided Vince can go back for OT and Speech (I love the staff, plus, one of them will be with him next year when he transitions to middle school) is it ok that the principal refuses to allow this?

I plan to get a dr's note so he can return to speech and ot, and get the schoolwork they have yet to send since May 2, and for the rest of the year.

Will they have to then send his missed work, and, let him back to school for Speech and OT (during which there is no reason Adolf should be present, although I'm sure she'll pop up like an STD ya thought was done).

Also, I want to get the doctor's note to specify that he cannot again be put in that d@mn isolation room, that I should be called to get him instead...considering I will be waiting outside the school (on the road, I'm not allowed on the property) that should be non-negotiable I'm hoping.

What do you think? Can he go back for just Speech and OT, does the princiNOTpal have the right to say 'NO' just like that? She seems to find 'policies' to back up all she says, but, has to twist things to get our situation to fit the policies...know what I mean? In addition, she is contradicting things other staff has said continually, which, I guess school's can do since there's not much 'law' that is actually applied to them.

Well, I just feel rotten Vince has had his school life amputated so abruptly from his life. I know he misses the kids and many staff, Adolf is the only one he doesn't miss, though I thought he would, they did have some good times too.

I just hope he can do speech and ot (two things he has no 'behaviors' doing) so he can return to school set up to succeed, finish the school year feeling stress free and competent, with no further memories of the isolation room, abusing staff (which he feels awful about), fears his dad and I have that school will cry victim and call the police on him. I want him to say goodbye to everyone he's known for the last 6 years like all the other kids, not in one huge jerk out of the school system in one day, without warning.

Thanks everyone,

The Pogue
05-16-2007, 12:06 PM
He is absolutely entitled to OT and Speech!! If adolph will not allow him in school, she must arrange for those services to be provided in another location - home, public library study room, middle school, etc.

Feel free to send her the following:

Dear Adolph:

My name is Pogue Mahone. I am a school psychologist licensed by the states of Wisconsin and Illinois. It has been brought to my attention that Vincent _______ is not being provided with the occupational and speech/language therapies specified in his IEP. While I do not know of all the factors leading to the decision to keep Vincent out of your school for the remainder of the year, you are required to allow him the special educational wservices to which he is entitled. If the school environment is not a suitable environment for any reason, you must work with his parents to find another environment to provide these services, such as his home, a private study room in the public library, city hall, etc.

If you have any questions as to Vincent's entitlements and your legal obligations, I suggest you contact the Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction.


My Real Name
My License Number
My telephone number

Mother's Heart
05-16-2007, 12:37 PM
Mili, did you and dh make the choice to remove him from school? or was it the school's idea/choice?
I admit I've been worrying without really knowing the arrangements you have made about whether it was just a matter of not going, or if a formal decision was made and documented?

and yes, even if he's homeschooled or considered a homebound student he is entitled to the sped therapies in his IEP. He doesn't have to physically attend any classes to receive the therapies.

05-16-2007, 05:40 PM
Pogue, it's the principal that says no. God I'd love to send that letter. Can you email me your License Number? Do you think it would make more impact if you sent it....NOT trying to give you work, but what do you think would have the most effect?

Vince really loves his Speech/Language lady. He was talking about her today, I said I was still trying to get him back to be able to work with her, and he said, "Oh, we don't work, we have fun". Love it. That's what an effective teacher does. I mean, a kid can't always love school, but they shouldn't be so overwhelmed they wind up locked in a closet with a cute name "time out room" or "pause room" or whatever.

I just sent the principal an email tonight, she's really tripping apparently cause I mentioned Vince was injured at school, and she flipped and said stuff like "no probable cause" and "no evidence" and stuff. Nothing like, "Gosh, is he ok now, what happened?". Anyhow, here is tonight's letter:

There are an abundance of statements you've made in the school's best interests that we do not agree with, we have for now ignored them as we can meet or email about those issues at a later date. We ask you to focus emails on a plan to insure success for Vince to get back to school. Nothing else.

So let's focus on that. Success or Vince, which includes safety for everyone.

We've several times asked what your plan for success for Vincent coming back to school. You have not responded with one. So here's what we have all come up with (parents, doctors, autism staff). Vince should return to school gradually, starting with what has been successful in the past, Speech and OT.

Since you refuse to allow him to start with related services, or continue related services as does (dir of student services), we ask again how you envision Vincent returning to school in a way that insures success and safety?

Now, get this...I feel like every time I get a little happy, someone smashes my teeth out. I received a citation tonight for $298.00 for disorderly conduct, which, I don't understand, cause the D.A.'s office dropped it. I guess this is like some civil thing or something, it said the police department investigated this (case the d.a. dropped) and found my conduct was in fact disorderly. I don't have to appear at municipal court (I WILL) but have a citation of $298.00.

It's like, I just can't even get 1/2 way up the pit I'm climbing out of, and I get knocked further in. In fact, they even put the wrong court time on the citation - had I not called court I'd have MISSED IT. I'm sure the cops will say it's an accident. The only good thing, I know the judge, he's on tv doing these cases, and he is very respectful to people. So, I hope I won't cry uncontrollably or be loud (I do that when very nervous accidentally). It's like, this'll never be over.

I'm very thankful for the abundance of good things and blessings we have, honest I am. But I just feel like every new day is a new arse kicking.

Mother's Heart, I'm waiting for his doctor to decide what she'll write for his doctor's note, IF she feels she can, then I'll know what's going to happen. Personally, I'd like to see him go to school just for the things they can do correctly, this would mean he can only go when Adolf will be no where near him. Thus, speech and ot. On the positive side, which I'm having trouble enjoying now, he is FLYING in RDI at the moment, after less than a week the consultant says she is going to up the level soon.

Sorry I'm not too happy, I just feel so scape goated or something, by the legal system, mostly cause of hos it doesn't do anything for my son and 'FAPE', so called.

Thanks for listening.

Mother's Heart
05-16-2007, 06:01 PM
On the positive side, which I'm having trouble enjoying now, he is FLYING in RDI at the moment, after less than a week the consultant says she is going to up the level soon.
:) :) That is such fantastic news. :) :D

I remember when I first brought Donovan home from school....how he also FLEW in areas the school wasn't working on....since I was able to focus on the more important abilities/issues. It made being home worth everything and the things we gave up by leaving school so unimportant.

I hope and pray that Vincent will gain more understanding of how valuable and worthy he is from the realization of what he CAN do (and do well) with the right kind of effort and the love and support he's now being offered.

It makes a lot of difference when people understand you. Vince is so fortunate to have you MILI.

The Pogue
05-16-2007, 07:39 PM
I'll gladly mail it tomorrow.

05-16-2007, 08:34 PM
I'll email you her email addy, awesome, omg thank you.

His speech and language teacher is keeping in touch with us, she's really awesome, and she'll be in Vincent's new school next year. Vince loves her for one thing, cause according to him she doesn't make him 'work'...I think that's a sure sign of an effective teacher, your student 'learns' without realizing it.

05-16-2007, 08:40 PM
Mother's Heart, I totally see what you're saying, and if school were ALL bad I would not be as gutted to know he misses many of the people there. His speech and ot staff are great, and he's known his ot staff since kindergarten (he's in 5th) plus loves handwriting in ot, which, amazed us all cause he hates printing and any fine motor tasks. I'm not concerned about the academics he's missing, he really hasn't progressed much there at all. It's the emotional attachments with good staff there I hate it that he's missing. They're his only outside relationships, we have no extended family in this state or any friends for him other than in school. I hear he and Adolf used to read comics and laugh, if I could trust she wouldn't push him to a tantrum I'd welcome that too...I don't like it at all that he says he 'hates' her, cause that only hurts HIM inside to hate, it's a terrible feeling to have. Ya know?

Crazy as it sounds, and maybe I say this cause I feel so lost in all this crap, I have to believe there's a good reason for all of this, like karma or God's Will and it's going to turn out far better for him than had none of this happened, that this is not just random meaningless bad fortune.

Mother's Heart
05-16-2007, 09:09 PM
well, even if there isn't a specific reason for this bit happening, it all does weave into the tapestry of who he (and you and the school folks) becomes and makes it a stronger, more diverse life fabric in the long run. I don't believe this will destroy Vincent.

(and I have been down the road of feeling like school personnel and impossible school situation had irreparably scarred my child (the non-asd one) and had unfairly stolen something vital from her that she deserved to enjoy and benefit from. Now being a few years past that I see that many of my fears and heartbreak were not entirely warranted. Yes, there was great pain suffered, and yes, there has been long term aftermath, but also there has been long-term growth, if nothing more from coming to a point of forgiveness and acceptance.....besides realizing the internal ability to overcome the trials and to survive it all intact.) I don't know if that comment makes sense, but it's basically where we've been.

05-16-2007, 11:25 PM
Well it doesn't entirely make sense to me (not know the entire circumstances) but I mostly get what you're saying.

I don't want anything especially profound, just want them to quit locking him in a room, want him to get an education, and would like to stop going to court.

I'm trying hard to stay absorbed in the RDI and success with it we're having, the baby chicks, and our goofy dog that fell in a lake today and stunk to high heaven till his bath. Then peed on my couch, behind my back literally, while I was on the couch. Between the throw pillow and the couch itself. I don't eeeeven want to know what that means in dog language, I doubt it could be good.

Mother's Heart
05-17-2007, 12:13 AM
:D :D :) :)

thanks for the smiles MILI.
You have no idea how many times I get to smile when I read your posts. Not laughing at goofiness... just enjoying the fun. :) I like your point of view.

That dog...... :D :D :D

I can barely keep my eyes open....gotta crash soon.

05-17-2007, 02:13 PM
Yes, that dog. He's so 'dysfunctional' or whatnot, really a perfect fit for our family, we can handle his personality, we love it, we love him, he's really a cool little guy (with the acception of the couch incident, that was just uncool).

POGUE! Wow that email was great. I read all the legal stuff twice, I'll have to try again later I think. Just when I grasp it, I lose it...know what I mean? the main thing is, I hope he'll get to return for related services, and, if that goes well, more. But I'm not 'there' yet.

Here's the email I sent today, I hope it doesn't dilute what you sent, I tried to stick with the point (you know what a strain that is for me!!)

Email us regarding arrangements for Vincent to receive related services (Speech and OT). He can begin tomorrow any time before 12:30, he has another doctor's appointment at 1:00pm.

Or, email your continued refusal to allow this.

We need to prepare him either way. We do not want to bring Vincent to school with no arrangements in place, which, would be a unfair for both him and staff. He asks for the Speech/OT staff often, he misses them, as you can imagine.

Because you've refused to allow him to receive related services, we did not realize he was entitled to this. That is something we need to discuss later though. Let's make sure we get Vincent back to the services he should have been receiving all along first.

We want to make certain you received the same information we did regarding this issue, so this email makes sense - see below.

Then I resent what you had. I don't want to hear "I never got that email" about your email, know what I mean?

The Pogue
05-17-2007, 10:44 PM
High 5!

I sent you her reply. I didn't respond. I hope it doesn't backfire on you in anyway. I think it's a good thing she knows you have friends in low places, and Vince has an advocate.

05-20-2007, 02:23 AM
I'm guessing because of the legal stuff you sent her, she thought she had a great argument and sent me an email telling me my home is not a Private School repeatedly. Am I wrong, or is she completely ignoring the part where you said dh and I have the legal right to bring Vince to school for related services. Tell me what you think (I can't remember if I sent you this, but I know I told you about it). From Elementary principal to me:

There seems to be some confusion about Private Schools and the services allowed by State law. Your home is not a Private School. Some examples of private schools are +++++ High School and ++++ School in Madison.

Therefore, the laws for Private Schools do not apply to your situation. Wisconsin calls "home-schooling" a "home-based private school." There are rules pertaining to special education for a "home-based private school." You can find this information on the DPI website. A student who is in a "home-based private school" is not entitled to special education and/or related services (therapies) by school board policy. The +++++++ School District does not provide special education and
related services to students in their "home-based private school."

Vincent is enrolled as a student at +++++++ Elementary School and his attendance is expected until such time as you have officially registered with DPI by completing the “home-based private school form, PI-1206.” This form is available through the DPI website.

The School District has a current IEP for Vincent and his special education placement is at ++++++Elementary for the remainder of this year. If Vincent is medically not able to attend ++++++ Elementary School, he must have a physician's (medical doctor or psychiatrist) recommendation for medical homebound instruction. The School District has contacted you about arranging for an IEP meeting at +++++++ Middle School to consider any of your requests related to Vincent's education at +++++Elementary for the remainder of this school year.

In summary, your home is not a Private School in the State of Wisconsin. Your son is truant from +++++++ Elementary School, unless we receive a medical request for medical homebound. A parent cannot unilaterally make a placement decision; it must be made by the IEP team. The ++++ Area School District believes that Vincent's current IEP offers Vincent a free and appropriate public education.


Here was my response to the principal:

You're response was difficult for me to understand.

I know my home is not a Private School. Just guessing here, when you read the statement by the licensed psychologist, "If Vincent's parents choose to bring Vincent to school only to receive their services, that is their right. The same would apply IF Vincent were attending a private school." did you miss reading the 'if'? If not, can address that with her?

Ok so back to keeping the focus on Vincent.

You have received a doctor's note (perhaps it was just after sending your response).

The doctor's note excused Vincent since 4/27/2007.

The doctor's note says he should continue to receive therapeutic services (Speech and OT).

You state that I'm unilaterally making decisions, but I'm following his doctor's medical advise. I do not know if you are required to follow it. I do not know if the IEP team is required to follow it. Maybe you can answer that for me.

You know all these laws, I don't. You know all the policies, I don't.

To the best of my ability, I have done all you said I must, for Vince to be able to begin his return to school. I never dreamed he'd be out this long, especially with no school work being sent to keep him from falling behind. Though with the doctor's note you have, you said that will be forthcoming so is no longer an issue once received.

Please let me know if there is anything else required of me by law or school policy, to let him continue his related services.

Please let me know if there is anything else required of me by law or school policy for his doctor's note to be followed.

Please let me know if you are going to continue to refuse to let him receive related services no matter what.

The IEP...since you're not at ++++ Middle School, I'm not even sure why you know about the IEP meeting. It is not related to ++++ Elementary. It was initiated by ++++ Middle School, scheduled at +++++ Middle school. It is not for another 2 weeks. By then there is only a few days of school left. We would have an entire IEP to address only a few days of school.

And, I need to back up here....the IEP I speak about above, was set up after Pogue's letter to Vincent's Elementary school because that school had sent me the following email:

Hi Lisa,
I understand that you have an IEP related request. If you do have a request for the IEP team to consider, the IEP team could meet to discuss/consider this request. Let me know if you would like an IEP meeting.

If so, here are two dates and times that can work for me and the IEP team to meet with you:

Friday, June 1st 1:45 to 2:15p.m.
Tues, June 5th 2:00 to 2:30p.m.

If you would like to meet, let me know which of these times work for

Thanks, Lisa. I'll wait to hear from you.

So, here is what I replied...bear in mind I'm still kinda spooked by getting arrested just for yelling, still have one more (that makes 3) court date over this, and, to me she sent this out of the blue and I was confused cause I had not asked her for an IEP so why did she think I had a request for one??? Now I get it, the principal told her to email me. Anyhow, my response to her above letter:

I'm not actually sure what you mean by saying I have an IEP request - sorry about that. Do you mean me trying to get the Elementary School principal to allow him to continue his Speech and OT?

I think an IEP would be a great idea, June 1 from 1:45 to 2:15 is fine. But, it would be for the purposes of going over the BIP for parent contributions, and to go over information I received that contradicts the IEP. I want to explain what his dad and I believe will happen for Vince at school next year regarding RDI on the IEP, so you can make sure we're not misunderstanding anything. Is that ok to meet for that reason?

I'd prefer to meet with critical staff only, meaning, any staff that will be part of Vincent's school year next year. If his case manager 'Adolf' is there I will be unable to attend, she filed for and with the school's attorney got, a restraining order against me saying she is afraid of me, so I'm sure she wouldn't want to be there anyway.

I am extremely uneasy to go to an IEP, given what we've been through in recent weeks. I want your assurance that you and staff there understand I have aspergers, that you understand I lack the ability to read anyone's facial expressions or body language, and am not aware of my own body language, facial expressions, and how or what they communicate to others. I need a cue if I am doing something wrong, like, "your voice is loud and I'm not comfortable" or "you are too close and I'm not comfortable" and I'll be happy to oblige (relieved actually, cause I'll know I'm not making anyone uncomfortable). I never intend to make anyone uncomfortable, though aspergers seems to come with a natural tendency to make others angry unfortunately. Also, I don't take hints verbally or give hints, have been told I'm 'bold' but never intend to be. If you already understand aspergers then you know this anyhow. If you already understand aspergers then you know what a nerve wracking experience all social events are for me, cause inevitably I fail at communicating what I intend to. And I'm highly nervous about that. My friends who are neurotypical and know my intentions, seem to understand me perfectly, so I hope that'll happen.

Thank You,
See you June 1,

05-20-2007, 12:28 PM
My understanding of the principal's letter is that homeschooling is considered legally to be private education in Wisconsin and if you opt to homeschool a sped student you are responsible for all services. Further, you have to register with DPI to homeschool, so the child doesn't just "drop off the radar" educationally speaking. I haven't looked at the websites she gave you, just my understanding based on her letter.

I don't see how they expect to have an IEP meeting, if you are not allowed at school and not allowed contact with key people involved w/ Vincents IEP. I don't even see how you could legally withdraw him from school, given you are not allowed to go to the office to do so.

I wish I was good at reading between the lines on these educational things- do they want or expect you to bring him back to school? Are they trying to get you to medicate him? (legally they cannot just come out and say this point blank) Are they trying to get you to withdraw him? What is their proposed solution to this situation?

When do you get the ruling from OCR? Will OCR's involvement prevent you from getting mediation or pursuing a lawsuit against the district? (which I know you don't really want to do, but academically, they have failed to educate Vincent even though they have reported that his disability does not prevent him from learning the regular curriculum).

05-20-2007, 05:18 PM
Hi Peglem!

Ok, let me ask you this.

I have never said to school that I want him to be no longer enrolled there, that I want him homebound. I have said I want their assurance he will no longer be isolated in that room, their assurance that he AND staff will be safe, and have asked them to create that scenario with me. They then reply about how they will continue to provide FAPE, so it really to me is a red flag that nothing will change, and he will wind up attacking staff. I have said I do not want him to be an abuser, or to have memories of being an abuser. He behaves this way no where but at school and with Adolf. I have said I want him to go back but to start with only OT and Speech, things he is successful at, things he misses, with staff he loves and who knows him. School said not without a medical note, they now have that. It excuses him from past absences since the start of this, and asks he return to 'therapeutic' services on his IEP. They still insist it's all day just like before, or not at all.

What I 'meant' that I did not write to school, is I want him to be successful at school and can see no way that will happen with the ever inept 'Adolf' as his case manager, so I thought by having him go just to speech and OT, he could say goodbye to fifth grade and the staff he loves gradually like he should get to, and not with the amputation of 1/2 his life he has experienced by leaving school. I want him to return to school for a successful goodbye. I want to, as I have asked them to all year, squeeze Adolf out of his life there so he won't be baited, and I'm starting to doubt how well meaning she is, I have thus far assumed she wants what's best for Vince, but I dunno. At home, he says if she tries to put him in isolation again, he'll kill her, choke her, bite her, etc....most upsetting to him STILL is the no hug policy that started this whole thread, and the times she's humiliated him saying "Fifth graders don't cry" when he sobs over his hamster that died this year.

So, if school gets not only a licensed psychologist but a doctor's note saying to let him return for speech and ot, what do you think they'll do to get out of doing so, I mean I just don't see him returning for related services, the principal has made it clear it's her way, all day, or no way.

05-20-2007, 05:40 PM
Hi Peglem!

Ok, let me ask you this.

I have never said to school that I want him to be no longer enrolled there, that I want him homebound. I have said I want their assurance he will no longer be isolated in that room, their assurance that he AND staff will be safe, and have asked them to create that scenario with me. They then reply about how they will continue to provide FAPE, so it really to me is a red flag that nothing will change, and he will wind up attacking staff. I have said I do not want him to be an abuser, or to have memories of being an abuser. He behaves this way no where but at school and with Adolf. I have said I want him to go back but to start with only OT and Speech, things he is successful at, things he misses, with staff he loves and who knows him. School said not without a medical note, they now have that. It excuses him from past absences since the start of this, and asks he return to 'therapeutic' services on his IEP. They still insist it's all day just like before, or not at all.

What I 'meant' that I did not write to school, is I want him to be successful at school and can see no way that will happen with the ever inept 'Adolf' as his case manager, so I thought by having him go just to speech and OT, he could say goodbye to fifth grade and the staff he loves gradually like he should get to, and not with the amputation of 1/2 his life he has experienced by leaving school. I want him to return to school for a successful goodbye. I want to, as I have asked them to all year, squeeze Adolf out of his life there so he won't be baited, and I'm starting to doubt how well meaning she is, I have thus far assumed she wants what's best for Vince, but I dunno. At home, he says if she tries to put him in isolation again, he'll kill her, choke her, bite her, etc....most upsetting to him STILL is the no hug policy that started this whole thread, and the times she's humiliated him saying "Fifth graders don't cry" when he sobs over his hamster that died this year.

I absolutely agree with you- they should respond to you @ the "time out" room. Is time out, or whatever cute little name they call it on his BIP and if it is, does it specify the length of time he can spend there.

So, if school gets not only a licensed psychologist but a doctor's note saying to let him return for speech and ot, what do you think they'll do to get out of doing so, I mean I just don't see him returning for related services, the principal has made it clear it's her way, all day, or no way.

I have no idea what they'll do to get out of providing the services- probably make an IEP meeting, by that time there will be no time left in the school year to do anything anyway.

Sorry, I have no advice for you. These people seem so unreasonable and so unrealistic. Are they trying to get Vince sent to Juvenile detention? I do not think it would be wise to send Vince back to a full day situation with his statements against Adolf. Don't see how it could do anything but create a more serious disaster than you already have on your hands now.

05-20-2007, 05:58 PM
That was my thinking too.

I'm kind of going for the lesser of the two evils here I think. I know he will get violent if provoked, not that he should cause that's never ok, but I need to expect Adolf to have as much emotional common sense and restraint (do not keep saying 5th graders don't cry when you know it makes him violent).

Anyhow, I would not have the strength I feel, without all the support here, all the prayers, and all the RDI I do with him continually all day. I know he's learning more here than at school, that gives me peace of mind. But, I just don't want him to have left school the way it went. Honestly, if I thought Adolf could handle just reading the comics and laughing, as they did sometimes together, I'd ask for that too! I don't want him to hate her or have the last memories of her be so bad. Cause I love him way more than I want to 'one up' her or anything. How is it good for him, to hate her? Hate hurts him, not her. Anyhow, I think school thinks (cause they've told others this) that I am using him to like get back at them. Now, as any parent knows, spending all day, day after day with your own child, is hardly a punishment to anyone but myself, hee hee. I mean, it is work! Work I welcome though, given the alternative.

05-20-2007, 06:13 PM
Whatever happens this year, how are you going to approach the situation with next year? I know its a different school, but the same district. So, can you keep Adolf out of the process when developing his program for next year? Does the new school already have "here comes the trouble maker" feelings? Would be nice to have a really fresh start, but I'm worried this whole thing will follow you guys to the next school.

On the hate issue- I think you're right. It hurts Vince, not Adolf. Is there anyway to help him with this? I mean, I'm sure he's done some horrible things to his family (just cause it happens, not cause he's horrible), but you all still love him, because you forgive him.

05-20-2007, 08:18 PM
Yeah, I'm working on this with him. If he feels like I did at his age, he either hates or loves, the person is either good, or bad. I was very old (35ish) before I was not of this mind of thought.

I'm used a drawing of a teeter totter, I'm rotating the paper to make the totter go up or down. I want to show him, that EVERYONE has both good and bad on their totter. I want to show him that there are big, med, and small bads and goods. For instance, all the laughs they shared was a big good. Her sharing her snacks with him sometimes was a medium good (he dictates the size). He wants to make her making him do school work at school a 'bad' but I said he couldn't cause she'd get fired, that's her job to do that so that was neither a good or bad. Putting him in the isolation room was a big bad. In the end, we did wind up with more goods than bad's, but the bad's were all really big, like saying 5th graders don't cry, like not letting him have recess for a year, for making another student play this game that he winds up biting his arm bloody over week after week. I think Vince doesn't even realize it, but he hurts by hating her cause he loves her too, or at least has formed an attachment to her. But he's hurt, wants to 'punish' her by removing his love.

My scoop on this to him, was it's ok if he doesn't want to work with her. I understand why. But there was good things about her too, and those good things show him that she does care about him. He keeps saying she tricked him, that she doesn't know "autism kids". I said not everyone understands autism, just like you don't understand some things like where a baby turtle goes the first year it's at sea. He says she doesn't work good with kids just like this one crappy camp aide he had, I said it's true not everyone that works with kids is good with kids. But she did try.

It's hard to know what to say, I feel like I'm condoning a lot of things she said and did, that I don't like at all. I feel like I'm making excuses for an alcoholic ex-husband who is in his life part time screwing up the things I'm trying to help. Anyhow, it'll be over in a few weeks. I can't know how the next school is going to be. I know his speech and language staff rocks. One of the first times we spoke, she said she wasn't comfortable with something I'd asked. Man I was so relieved, I told her thanks for letting me know! And I didn't mean to go overboard. And that was it, no biggie.

At the upcoming IEP however, I will make it clear that I do expect school to get an orientation from his RDI consultant, the elementary school staff said there had been training and there apparently has not. Training is $8,000 I've found out, but, I would be satisfied for school to purchase the $150 DVD, and, send video consultation to his consultant every other week as we do, for $95.00. If not, we'll go to due process over this. Also, no more isolation room. They need to call me if he is out of hand immediately. I will guarantee you, Vince will wish he'd gone to the time out room instead. I get school's story, his story, make sure both understand one another, but in the end he must do what staff tells him is the bottom line. However, usually once they understand his side, the issue is resolved cause they have a different expectation than the one they had prior, that caused the problem. He absolutely cannot become violent with staff again, period. That's a biggie for me. I need to speak with someone every day about his day either by email or in person or whatnot, just to get a feel for what's going well and what's not. I want his future aides to attend IEP's, other parents get that, I had no idea. Given his violence at this school, I want to meet every other week for 30 minutes with critical staff to make SURE I know what's going on at school. Also, I want to firm up in writing the video I was supposed to get, that's not in writing, but I was 'told' would be ok. For that I will loan my equipment, a wee camera the size of an egg with cordless video transmission, like closed circuit tv thingies in radio shack. And, I'd like to develop better strategies for his academics since he hates it so much, like research driven projects rather than sitting in class and hating it and not paying attention to anything said. I have to find that idea, another mom had it, about the research driven projects on her son's IEP.

05-20-2007, 08:18 PM
Oh yeah, I want to let them know his IEP's keep getting rewritten with the same goals over and over, just different verbiage. Yeesh.

05-22-2007, 01:17 AM
update....we are getting no where FAST, so much better than getting no where slow. (sarcasm)

I wrote this:


Just checking in.

Vincent's schedule shows related services on Tuesdays, 8:50 until 9:30, then again 9:50 until 10:00. I know his OT time varies, I'll bring him for that when ever the OT staff feels is best for him. How many minutes per week of OT does he get?

I will drop him off for these related services by 8:45 unless you email me differently. I can come earlier, anytime, no problem, but I do need to make sure I get him by no later than 11:00 (he has an appointment).

Can **** **** meet him at the door and walk him where he needs to go with her?

You have sent me no assurance to date as I asked, that both he and staff will be safe at school. No plan of safety has been discussed as I asked. So I'll do what I can without benefit of mutual communication, and wait outside at the curb during his time in school, so I can be totally available to staff should he begin to escalate. Though I can't imagine that will happen at Speech or in OT, which is the reason to start with what he can be successful at.

Is this ok? Let me know...I'll email a couple other staff just in case you're out for the day. I wouldn't want Vince to just show up, and staff not be aware he'll be coming.

Also, I still need all the school work Vincent missed, when do you think that will be coming?

Mr. & Mrs. *
So, the prin wrote me back 4 days later:

Please do not send Vincent to school tomorrow, May 22, 2007, for his therapies. The District will contact you soon regarding your requests.

If you would like to send Vincent for his full school day tomorrow according to the provisions of his current IEP, the District is ready and able to provide FAPE (Free Appropriate Public Education).

So, I said:


"The 'district' will contact you soon regarding your requests", that's it?

Two requests, the same ones for the last 3 weeks.

1) Send the school work and home work he's missed since the end of April

2) Let him continue related services. Let me know when to drop him off, I'll wait and be there to pick him up, alleviating further delay while school arranges transportation.

There are less than 14 days of school left. He has missed over three weeks, 'soon' was yesterday. Every email you send is another day he misses, Vincent is waiting.

What is the Law and school policy about a student continuing the related services on his IEP when the student enrolled in **** ****, cannot attend full days, has a doctor's note explaining this, and stating he should return to related services, and excuses his medical absences - all per your request? Vincent is waiting.

It seems there is no priority or focus in your emails, that Vincent is still waiting. So we're saying it again and again, hoping it will be. Vincent is waiting.

We hear your repeated 'offer' that Vincent return full days, though do not hear any assurance he will not attack staff if he goes back full days right off the bat. Your repeated 'offer' is not appropriate, it is AMA. Our motivation for asking Vincent continue related services is wanting what is right for our son, what his doctor advises, wanting no further violence toward your staff, or isolation of our autistic 11 year old in small locked room. We cannot know the motivation of your decision to refuse related services, refuse to send missed school work, can't make you accountable, can't make you answer though your decisions effect our child. We feel clear FAPE is not the motivation. Clear that Vincent is waiting.

Mr. & Mrs. *


And in case I forgot to mention....I DID get a doctor's note to school last Friday which excused Vince from all his absences since the end of April, asked he continue his related services, and be excused from full days.

05-22-2007, 10:31 AM
So, the prin wrote me back 4 days later:

[B]Please do not send Vincent to school tomorrow, May 22, 2007, for his therapies. The District will contact you soon regarding your requests.
If you would like to send Vincent for his full school day tomorrow according to the provisions of his current IEP, the District is ready and able to provide FAPE (Free Appropriate Public Education).


This sounds ominous to me...like the principal has been told to do nothing until the district can bring the legals crashing down on you. I'd guess they have something up their sleeve.

Mother's Heart
05-22-2007, 11:03 AM
my thoughts exactly

05-22-2007, 10:39 PM
Today's letter to the prin:

As of tomorrow it's been 5 days since you received the doctor's note excusing his absences and stating he should continue related services.

He has waited over 3 weeks for his school work and home work to be sent.

He has waited over 3 weeks to resume his related services.

Your emails of the past weeks and the consultants we contacted outside the district as well as DPI stated to us he was and is entitled to his related services.

Is there some legal issue for the stalling and checking with 'the district'? Is there anything else we can do for Vincent to receive his Speech and OT? Let us know. We will provide transportation to expedite his return to related services. Once resumed, we can discuss compensatory Speech and OT due to him.

05-23-2007, 03:53 PM
Today's letter to me, further stalling, creating imaginary intentions from the doctor's note.

May 23, 2007

Dear Lisa,

The **** is in receipt of Dr. * May 18, 2007 request
that Vincent's absences be excused due to concerns related to his
health. In addition to excusing certain absences, Dr. * also
requests that Vincent be allowed to return to school for therapies as
defined in his IEP. Dr. * request that the District provides
school work and allow Vincent to attend school for therapies only is
understood to be a request for homebound instruction. The homebound
instruction request will be considered by the District at an IEP meeting
scheduled for June 1st at 1:15-2:45 pm at * Middle School. A
copy of the IEP Meeting invitation will be sent to you via regular mail.

You will find attached to this email, the * Consent for Release of
Information form. The District is requesting that you consent to the
District communicating with Dr. * regarding Vincent so that the
IEP team can have all necessary information regarding the medical basis
for the request that Vincent receive homebound instruction by the
District, but return to school for certain therapies. If there are
additional individuals you would like to authorize to communicate with
the District, please complete a Consent for Release of Information for
those individuals as well.

Additionally, based upon Dr. * May 18, 2007 note, the District
will excuse Vincent's absences for April 27th through May 18th. Because
these absences have now been excused, the District will send home the
school work that Vincent missed during this period. However, any
absences on May 21 or after will need a continued medical excuse for
Vincent, or Vincent needs to be attending school during this time period
in accordance with Wisconsin**€™s truancy law. The District is ready to
provide Vincent with a full-day school program as outlined in his
current IEP and as is consistent with FAPE.
Boss of 'Adolf', Director of Student services PREVENTION


So, it seems they've created a catch 22, homebound. The doctor's note said only that he receive related services, and excused his absences. Nothing about homework. Also, I am again talking with yet another person.

So, I wrote,

Direct any questions about 'the intent' of the doctor's note to the Doctor. There is contact information on the note. The note is specific, the intent to excuse absences, continue therapeutic services, as stated. Are you saying he can only receive related services if homebound? Let me know. Vincent continues to wait.

I am under the belief Vincent is entitled to related services by law. Let me know if he is not so this issue will be closed. Here is why I think this...see statement from consultation from a Licensed Psychologist that told us and wrote Lynn:

Vincent is entitled to receive all of the therapeutic services specified in his IEP; namely speech therapy and occupational therapy. If the Clayborn's choose to bring Vincent to school only to receive their services, that is their right.

I understand it is your intention he return full time right off the bat, to the same circumstances and environment he was unable to control himself in. Let us know why, we'd like to hear all opinions and ideas. I will then share them with his dad, with his doctor. Until then, I have to follow the doctor's advice.

The current situation is no different than was done in other school years. School (assoc prin) told me they could not handle him full days, I was told I had to pick him up early every day, and I did for months. Despite this not being on his IEP I complied, as would any parent not wanting to put staff in a position to be harmed by our child. Same thing this year, however, instead I was told by Lynn to get a doctor's note. So I did. And he's still not back. You aware how badly staff was injured his last week in April, bitten till bruised, choking people, hitting, kicking. Are you concerned going to school only part days is some admission that school cannot handle his behaviors? He is locked in that closet with a cute name the 'pause room' so long he falls asleep waiting to be released, that too is not handling his behaviors. He hates it, it's dehumanizing, he says it makes him feel like a zoo animal.

C'mon ***, this is not the way. Is there no way I can appeal to you or *principal* or *superintendent*l to let him continue related services, to follow his doctor's note?

The upcoming IEP on June 1st already has an agenda, the agenda has nothing to do with *elementary school*. Mrs. * from *middle school* emailed to say she understood I'd like an IEP, I did. I then get to set the agenda, and emailed it to her. She can give you a copy of that email. If you wish to set another IEP and meet regarding another issue, that's fine. But to meet for issues related to *elementary school* on June 1, with 4 1/2 days of school remaining....that's illogical, it stalls his return another 1 1/2 weeks.

Maybe I should tell you this, in case you don't know. To help you understand where we're at as his parents. After reading about his last days at school, the violence, I immediately set up several evaluations back to back, a physical, all kinds of testing, even went out of state. There is nothing 'wrong' with him, no drugs for violence or aggression were prescribed, school is the only place he reacts violently. I continue willing to work hand in hand with you, no matter how you feel about me personally, let's focus on Vincent. I am a mother really trying to work in Vincent's best interests, but I do NEED the staff and administration to work with me to create an environment that is safe and appropriate for my son and your staff. Please consider all that.

The Pogue
05-23-2007, 06:19 PM
post deleted

05-23-2007, 07:23 PM

post deleted

05-23-2007, 07:27 PM
Also, I just sent this, hoping if I give them a 'way out' of their not following law, and getting Vince back to his Speech and OT:


Something just occurred to me, I'm just guessing here, but did you actually read the Doctor's note? You said, "Dr. *'s request that the District provides school work and allow Vincent to attend school for therapies only is understood to be a request for homebound instruction."

Her note is just three sentences, as follows:

Vincent is a patient whom I see on a regular basis for multiple medical issues. He has been out of school since 4/27/07 for concerns related to his health. Please excuse his absences, and allow him to return to school for therapies defined by his IEP.

See? No request for school work.

Again, just guessing here...the principal *** refused to send his school work until she received a doctor's note, I emailed that's never happened before, she emailed it was school policy. So I'm imagining you and she spoke on the phone, and these two different issues became confused. In this confusion though, Vincent is waiting.

Vincent is able and eager to continue his scheduled related services immediately, starting tomorrow May 24, 2007, during his usual times, or select different times, I'll get him there, no problem. Looking at the calendar, tomorrow will be FOUR WEEKS since he received related services. He misses staff, misses the children, he is waiting.

Mr. & Mrs.

The Pogue
05-23-2007, 07:38 PM
I'll revise a draft later. Can't work on it right now.
I'll email you the revision for your feedback. Might not be until tomorrow.
Meanwhile, I'm deleting the current draft, lest the wrong eyes get a heads up.

05-23-2007, 07:45 PM
Ok me too. I had no idea you were doing all this!!! I thank you DEARLY, but don't think it'll get Vince his speech and OT. But geez if you're willing to do all that I want you to know I appreciate it. But don't expect it, but it sure is nice!

05-23-2007, 08:14 PM

I want to thank you so much for helping Milli!!! With everything she and Vince have been through, it is so wonderful to see that someone with some "influence" can get invovled and hopefully make a difference. Unfortunately, the district has drawn the line (as with my district as well), and I'm not sure what can be done to give them the wake up call they so deserve to receive. Hopefully with your help, things will change.

Milli, if you want help with a press release, please let me know, and I'd be more than happy to help you. I've already spoken to a reporter in Harrisburg about our situation, but am going to be sending out the press release I've been sitting on a release for the local press for a little while now (didn't want the district to say I was trying to "influence" elections, but I'm so regretting I didn't contact the press during elections now).

Anyway...let me know.

Take care,


05-23-2007, 08:14 PM
I don't know if its the right thing or not, but I would not give them access to Vince's medical records, or permission to discuss it with the doctor. They are just too good at turning everything around and using information selectively and for their own purposes. That information is private and its the doctor's job to decide if a medical condition is severe enough to miss school. They'll just have to trust in the medical expertise of Vince's doctor!

05-23-2007, 08:24 PM

I have to agree with Pogue on this. Do not give them access to his records. You have provided them with a letter from his physician asking that Vince be excused from school which states why he needs to be excused from school. If they need further clarification, then you can ask the doctor for a letter that the doctor sends directly to you. If you approve of it then you can send it to school; if there is something in there that you think needs changed, then you can contact the doctor. Once you're satisfied with it, then you can send it to school. But under no circumstances should you agree to allow the district access to his medical records (which are protected under HIPPA).

It just sounds like they're on a fishing expedition here. I also can't understand why they'll only accept the doctor's note for a certain number of days until you need another note. Maybe ask them about that?

Take care,


05-23-2007, 10:02 PM
I don't know if its the right thing or not, but I would not give them access to Vince's medical records, or permission to discuss it with the doctor. They are just too good at turning everything around and using information selectively and for their own purposes. That information is private and its the doctor's job to decide if a medical condition is severe enough to miss school. They'll just have to trust in the medical expertise of Vince's doctor!

I agree with every syllable.

Though in the past I have totally shared medical information with school, I absolutely do not feel it is in Vincent's interests to do so, for all the reasons you just listed, plus some school will think of that wasn't listed to make me regret being open with his medical information.

Gwen, I thought about going to the papers, but, I fear things getting turned around. I do have a 'record' now, was put in 'jail' I mean, the papers and media are going to do what sells, they don't care about Vincent. See what it is I fear? I have countless incidents with our past neighbor who thank God moved out, and random incidents where I panicked in public, called police to help me, and wound up the one in trouble usually cause the more upset I am, the more I cry, and the louder I am then but don't purposely get loud. If I had to play Freud, I think the less I feel heard, the louder I get. How I write here, is not how I am when in stress in real life. I become unable to think, talk, it just goes with the asd I guess, then everyone concludes I need to go to a psych ward, when what I really need is 5 minutes to self calm. When not feeling stress though, I think I'm pretty much in life like I am here...Pogue could say more about that cause she's met me and all.

Somewhere there's got to be a lawyer that wants to make a difference for our kids. They can have every drop of money we can win, I don't care. What I do care about is doing what's right for Vincent AND for other kids on the spectrum. This is ridiculous the way our kids are treated. Can you imagine waiting lists for kids with cancer, sitting outside a treatment facility bald cause they're chemo funds ran out for the year? If our kids had some hideous physical malformation, there'd be no shortage of support, I think that makes people feel good about themselves or something. But autism, ohhhh the poor poor schools, control that brat you bad mother!

It's allllllll good. I have faith, good will come of this, some how, some way. I gotta believe that, I do believe that. Vince has a whole forum full of prayers, I have a whole forum full of support. I have Pogue too! I have to be strong and continue this righteous fight, for my kid, for my family, for all the mothers that are so overloaded they simply cannot, for their kids, that's how it feels inside my heart. I'm not afraid of making wrong doers mad, of not being popular (gawd what's that?), I don't read dirty looks anyhow. I'm afraid I'll quit someday before I can make a contribution to this world for our kids, just as all the parents did before me who created IDEA. I'm not Martin Luther King Jr., but I have a dream, that my autistic child will receive the same opportunity to thrive and flourish and receive equal treatment to his nt peers in school. Which is hard for him to received locked in a closet with a cute name, the 'pause room'.

Not that this rhymes, but I can't help but think continually of autism as a holocaust.

there is a silent holocaust,
by Those who refuse to hear them.

there is a loud starvation,
by Those who refuse to feed them.

there is a cold detachment,
by Those who refuse to touch them.

there is an epidemic,
by Those who refuse to see them.

i'd rather be me, with asd,
than Those who turn away,
i'd rather be me, with asd
than Those on judgment day.

05-24-2007, 12:08 AM

I've just come in on the end of this. I haven't been back at BrainTalk very long.

Two things strike me:
1. You're being barred from school because people are 'scared' of you :mad: That's just WRONG. I believe that your civil rights are being violated. Not to mention you own rights as a disabled person. It is in no way your fault that you look quote-scary-unquote. What's that got to do with Vincent's education?? Nothing. And why should that cause you to be arrested. Give me a break :mad:
2. They are supposed to be providing your son an education. If they don't have the staff or the facilities to do it on-site, they are supposed to send him somewhere where he can get his education AND they are supposed to contribute to the cost of this private education.

Milli, this is reminiscent of what I went through with my son. I was divorced. His father was a "good father" but he wasn't really involved in our son's education. Didn't really try to be either. I'm not college-educated. I'm not rich.

Pit that against a school system that favors the quote-smart-unquote kids -- the kids that are destined for college and more. I fought for two years while they dragged their feet and hemmed and hawed. They actually told my son and a half dozen of the other special ed kids -- if there was no teacher in the classroom, it was OK to go home :eek:

I wish I could help Milli. I hate like heck that you're being subjected to this. You nerves must be torn to a frazzle. Meanwhile, Vince is getting the message that no one wants him AND he's not being educated. It infuriates me.

You've got a lot of great advice and support here. I also think that you need someone that can show you how to protect your own rights in all of this. You're definitely being kicked to the curb.

I can't remember what state you're in -- little "senior moment" here :p

I've got several blogs that I read faithfully every day. One of them is this one: http://www.aliedwards.typepad.com/ Her son's been diagnosed with Autism. Her husband's just been elected to the legislature. I have a feeling that if you contact her, she might be able to give you some more ideas about how to help Vince while keeping your own rights safe.

What is the school district saying about paying to send him to private school?? You might have already answered this. If you have, I apologize. I haven't had a chance to read all the back-story.

As I said before, Milli, you're a fantastic Mom and you're doing a great job of advocating for your son. I believe they're manipulating you hoping that you'll get 'scared' and back off and go away. Saves them a lot of money. In my state back when my son was in school, I fought for two years to get them to pay to send him to a private school. They didn't want to be the sole provider and get stuck paying for everything. I can understand that. But, I cannot understand getting a parent arrested for no reason and, basically, using fear to intimidate you.

Hang on tight. You do good work. Hugs.


05-24-2007, 07:47 PM
Thanks for all that Moose. And actually, my Federal and Civil Rights are being violated. I will continue this with the belief that someday, some young lawyer with a sibling they love on the spectrum, will swoop in and carry this to a case to change laws for kids on the spectrum. It's crazy, school's can do anything to kids, short of killing them, and are not accountable.

Well, here is today's emails. I feel like I took a crazy pill after I read it and responded.


You are correct that there was some confusion and that Dr. * did not ask for homework to be sent home; rather, you requested the homework. Thank you for making that clarification. We must hold an IEP meeting to consider the request for Vincent to return to school for therapies "only" and to consider your request concerning compensatory services. Both of these issues will be addressed at the IEP meeting scheduled for June 1st at * Middle School. You will receive your invitation to this meeting in the U.S. mail. I will be the LEA representative for this IEP meeting and the other participants will be * Elementary staff because we will be talking about Vincent coming to * Elementary for related services.

It would be helpful for the team to understand Dr. *'s recommendation, which is why we asked for you to sign the Consent For Release of Information Form that was attached to my last email. I appreciate your response that we could contact Dr. * using her information on her letter sent on 5/18/07, but the law requires that we have signed parent consent. I will include a Consent For Release of Information in the U.S. mail today with an enclosed self-addressed stamped envelope. Please sign and return if your are willing.

Please address all future correspondence to me as I am now the LEA representative for Vincent's IEP team until the end of this school year. Should I need information from staff or administration at * Elementary, I will work to obtain this information to answer any future questions that you may have.



What? My response:

We are trying to understand your email regarding the IEP. If you do not respond to the contrary, we'll know we've understood you.

We requested an IEP via email to * on 5/17/2007, we explained the topics we wanted to discuss.

You are responding today on 5/24/2007 that you will be the LRE, you will not allow topic we requested, at the IEP we requested.

You are saying the topic we will discuss is weather or not Vincent will be permitted to receive the related services to which he is already legally entitled.

You are saying Vincent has not received related services for the last 4 weeks, let's wait 8 days further, after which there is a weekend, so the best outcome of this IEP meeting is in 10 days more, when Vincent might receive related services for the 4 1/2 days of school remaining.

Then we are saying we do not understand, but will attend. But still need the date set for our request for an IEP to * on May 17, 2007. We now request an emergency IEP, so need to meet within 10 working days.

Separate topic:
Ironically, though Vincent is denied related services at * Elementary, we received letters from you today, stating school is billing his Wisconsin Medicaid Program for his related services at school. Cease now and in the future billing Medicaid, as was previously requested in the 2004-5 school year.

Mr. & Mrs. *

05-24-2007, 07:54 PM
OH, and when I receive the request to Consent to Release Vincent's personal medical info, I do not plan to because I don't understand why I should release information about a doctor's note, that they didn't follow anyhow.

I will respond to it as they did to me,

It would be helpful for the us to understand the request to sign the Consent For Release of Information Form sent in the U.S. mail, with an enclosed self-addressed stamped envelope. Why do you send and request we sign the Consent, when you did not follow the doctor's note anyhow?

05-24-2007, 09:09 PM
OH, and when I receive the request to Consent to Release Vincent's personal medical info, I do not plan to because I don't understand why I should release information about a doctor's note, that they didn't follow anyhow.

I will respond to it as they did to me,

It would be helpful for the us to understand the request to sign the Consent For Release of Information Form sent in the U.S. mail, with an enclosed self-addressed stamped envelope. Why do you send and request we sign the Consent, when you did not follow the doctor's note anyhow?

I'd probably tell them straight up that you do not intend to sign the release, but if there is something in the doctor's note that they do not understand or need clarification on, you will be happy to get clarification for them.

It would be helpful for the team to understand Dr. *'s recommendation, which is why we asked for you to sign the Consent For Release of Information Form that was attached to my last email.

The doctor's note was NOT difficult to understand. Aren't they supposed to be educated people?

05-24-2007, 10:17 PM
When kyle was on what they term Homebound it was because his behaviors were a danger to himself and to others. They have said that Vince is a danger to others so why do they want him back in school? (I know why) just thought it might be something the DR could tell them. (((HUGS)))

05-24-2007, 10:37 PM
When kyle was on what they term Homebound it was because his behaviors were a danger to himself and to others. They have said that Vince is a danger to others so why do they want him back in school? (I know why) just thought it might be something the DR could tell them. (((HUGS)))

Okay, I really DON'T know why they want him back in school. Aren't those 2 therapist paid and on the clock whether they see Vince or not? I've been trying to figure out why they aren't cooperating with Mili keeping him home. Am i just a big Der?

05-24-2007, 11:30 PM
I second that 'der'.

Do they want him back at school to

a. make sure in no way to I 'get my way' cause this is about egos

b. so they can sue me blind for the rest of our lives, stating I sent him back AMA and he hurt staff

c. cause they know I won't, and want to be able to say I refused to send him so they're not liable for anything compensatory

d. cause they're heartless, and know the best way to get me over the edge so they can send me to jail, is to hurt my child as I watch him long for his related services staff (funny, no mentioning Adolf other than with homicidal wishes! not good)

e. cause they can, I have no lawyer and can't afford one, sort of like a cat smacks a 1/2 dead mouse for a response

05-24-2007, 11:47 PM

They're trying to run out the clock and still pick up the bucks. Meanwhile, the most important part of their whole reason for existing **VINCENT** is not getting an education. Man :mad:


All of us can see that you're being screwed-and-glued. I just had a thought. You know I posted the link about the woman who's boy was diagnosed last year. Her husband's just been elected to the legislature.

How about if you do a google search for: blog autism
and see if there are any other parents like the woman I mentioned -- maybe someone in your area who already has a connection to a sympathetic lawyer??

I just have a feeling that if you can get someone with the legal credentials and expertise to really push on the school system, you might get this strarightened out.

I remember when my son was in school and the school was quote-resistant-unquote, bringing in funding sources from the Department of Social Services and from the Department of Mental Health made it a three-way split with the school and they were willing to go along with that and pay for him to go to a private school.

I personally think if they were doing their darn job, he wouldn't have to go to another school. That's a whole 'nother soapbox.

When I involved with this stuff, I had advocates from the Department of Social Services and from the Department of Mental Health guiding me and attending meetings with me. It helped a lot 'cause I didn't feel like I was so alone.

One other thing you might consider: give your local legal aide society or if you're near a city, see if there is a county or state bar association. They sometimes have free law clinics. You need to find some way of getting the ridiculous restraining order removed.

Hang on tight and breathe, sugar. I know you're gonna get past this successfully http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/thumbsup.gif

BIG HUGS (and love).


05-25-2007, 07:39 AM
c. cause they know I won't, and want to be able to say I refused to send him so they're not liable for anything compensatory

They have to say they were willing to let him back even though he was sooo bad and you refused to send him back, it makes them look like the good guys. You are the one being unreasonable because you wont let him come back, however you have a DR note so they need to make the DR out as the bad guy now that is why they want to talk to them.

05-25-2007, 10:18 AM
MaryEV, ahhh, ok.

Moose>>>>All of us can see that you're being screwed-and-glued.
You're tellin me, I took a shower after your post, bent over to pick up the soap and the principal and 2 attorney's fell out.

05-25-2007, 05:56 PM
Here is the email I got, about the IEP to come. I didn't feel I understood what it meant (hidden meanings). The 1/2 hour meeting will NO WAY be enough time to discuss what I wanted to when I requested the IEP. My ma says they just want to set me up, get me all emotional, and call the cops. Here's what I got:

Lisa, I will see you at the IEP meeting at * Middle School on Friday, June 1st at 1:15 p.m. in the conference room. I will be the LEA representative, not *. Lisa, all of the topics listed in your May 17th email to * will be discussed at the upcoming IEP meeting, as well as consideration of your request for compensatory services. See you then.


I felt literally ILL after the one I sent yesterday, agreeing to an IEP to go over what Vince should already be getting by law - there's no way we're going to have time to discuss what I wish to, they'll have staff there that filed restraining orders against me...how's that gonna work? Then it hit me, I'm not making a DECISION, all this back and forth emailing with no end in sight, no drawing the line for Vincent....so here's my response and I don't feel willing to negotiate on this further with school:


After emailing you last night, something really bothered his dad and I. We just can't get around it. We want so badly for our son to receive his related services, we are indulging in email banter with school that serves no benefit to Vincent.

We sought consultation outside of the district (Pogue). As a student enrolled in * Elementary Vincent is entitled to receive all of the therapeutic services specified in his IEP. If we choose to bring him to school only to receive his related services, it is his right.

Yourself, the principal and superintendent do not dispute this. Yet Vincent is still waiting.

We expect Vincent return to school Tuesday May 29, 2007 for his scheduled related services and to receive those services. We expect Vincent to receive his related services regularly scheduled for the remaining 8 1/2 days of school.

This is not about you, *, his dad or I. This is about Vincent and what he is entitled to under Federal Law the IDEA Act, and being deprived of by 'the district'. We have been advised and will pursue Due Process otherwise. Vincent is waiting.

We understand the IEP of June 1, 2007 is scheduled for 1/2 hour. If by June 1, 2007 Vincent is not receiving his related services and/or you wish to deny compensatory related services, that will by then be in Due Process, so not appropriate for an IEP meeting.

If you wish to discuss issues other than those we requested via email to * on 5/17/2007, for the June 1, 2007 IEP, then our request for an emergency IEP remains. If permitted, we request * to again act as LRE. She creates a positive, productive and communicative atmosphere which focuses on Vincent.

Mr. & Mrs.

05-25-2007, 11:02 PM
[QUOTE=milivica;109854]I felt literally ILL after the one I sent yesterday, agreeing to an IEP to go over what Vince should already be getting by law - there's no way we're going to have time to discuss what I wish to, they'll have staff there that filed restraining orders against me...how's that gonna work? Then it hit me, I'm not making a DECISION, all this back and forth emailing with no end in sight, no drawing the line for Vincent....so here's my response and I don't feel willing to negotiate on this further with school:


Are you even legally allowed to be there w/ those restraining orders in force? I'd sure check on that before I go.

I hope everything goes well with due process. How is your husband at dealing with these things? I mean the face to face interaction (confrontation) with staff at IEP meetings. There is NO WAY we could ever do an Allie IEP meeting in 1/2 an hour. We just did Allie's. They scheduled an hour, which wasn't enough (and I'd have gave a crap about messing up their schedule, except there have been communication problems with the teacher and I felt this was the only time I had to get things straightened out.) The person in charge of the meeting was getting really flustered because the next group was in for their meeting and we ran 1/2 hour over- it would have been more except she railroaded us out at that point and said we could call her if there was anything else.

05-26-2007, 01:04 AM
thinking of you mili, wishing you well in your struggle for an education for vincent.

05-26-2007, 01:06 AM
The IEP would be at the middle school, so I could attend. The 'restraining orders' are odd, cause they do not restrain me from contact with anyone, just from harassment. So, the judge said harassment would mean me yelling at a teacher after she shuts my kid in a closet till he falls asleep, or emailing her that she is inept or something like that. Yup. And if I do that again, if I don't kiss the ground teachers walk on and do anything that resembles harassment ever ever ever in the future, I will go directly to jail. That's what the judge said.

So, once again, as most of my aspie life, I feel when I am 'human' the walls come down around my ears. Yet everyone around me can do much worse, and it's fine.

Anyhow. I feel so much better after writing the last email. Any further emails from school, I will send a reply saying "refer to email of such-and-such date", cause there's no more to say. Ya know? Allow related services, or we go to Due Process, no meeting to waste time to allow the clock to run out.

I think Moose said it, the clock was running out and the most important part Vincent, is not getting an education Man! It was like getting advice from Cheech and Chong, hee hee. But for some reason, it really got thru to me.

And tho they'll probably push it to the limit, and opt for Due Process, emailing over and over and asking and pleading and getting Dr's notes for related services isn't working, so, hopefully this finally will. I felt like every email was like taking a crazy pill, I've never seen so much vocabulary with no accomplishment what so ever, other than in presidential races (heh).

Wish Vincent good luck. We'll see what happens. I'm already counting on filling out all the paperwork for Due Process this weekend, Murphy's Law and all, right? There are SO many issues, I'm assuming I can file for Due Process, and which ever issues are resolved by the time DPI gets to me, I can drop.

05-26-2007, 10:44 AM
http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/runforhills.gif, Milli's got her @$$-kickin' boots on :cool:

That's absolutely **PERFECT** -- strong, "I won't take any more of your BS", to-the-point, professional, http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/thumbsup.gif

I'm glad that I said something that helped, ((((((Milli)))))). I *hate* what they're doing to Vincent and to you and to the rest of your family. It's very reminiscent of what they did to my son. It was too late for my kid by the time I finally got everybody on the same page.

I've told you before, Vincent, is a wonderful kid. He just needs someone to help him find the key. I truly believe that there's a way to reach every kid, as long as the people that are working with him are really committed. If the bottom-line and manipulation are the most important things to these people, you don't want them in you kid's life (their 'purpose' is going to be to provide the funds to go somewhere else).

I hope you feel like you can breathe a tiny bit better now. You're totally focused and you're definitely moving in the direction.

BIG HUGS (and love).

Barb http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/knuddel.gif

05-26-2007, 10:54 AM
Hi Milli,
Just from reading all of this, it sounds like you are the one being harassed. not the other way around. Hopefully your son will not be traumatized from all these goings on. Why was he being put in a closet to begin with? Wishing the best for you and your son.

05-26-2007, 02:19 PM
Mrs J., yes, they are totally harassing me in the worst way, by using my son and my love for him as a tool.

Moose, I'm glad glad glad to hear my letter was good. I felt like I was saying, "enough". I didn't want to so much give an altematim as have closure. The indecision and suspense was killing me inside, Vince too. Every day he asks to see his speech and OT staff, he really loves them. I say powerlessly "I'm tryin babe". Now, IF he was as angry at them as he is at Adolf, or they were inept with him, I would not even want him to go to related services. Why send him to what I know he will not be set up for success at?

Anyhow, yes you're right commitment to our kids, WITH knowing what to do cause you know how the autistic mind thinks. I was always committed to my son, and on the spectrum myself! - but never knew what to do, it was a terrible feeling for so many years. I didn't know how to help my own son despite being asd, which I thought would make it kind of a given I'd know what to do. But it wasn't so. Now I finally know what to do, just need a consultant tho to show me how to do it (method).

I think it's a lot like parents who are nt, with children that are nt...just cause you have the same neurology does not mean you automatically understand and know what to do to raise a happy productive child that will make positive contributions to the world, make good choices for others and themselves, love themself, that kind of thing.

It's not 'automatic' at all to 'know' your child, I would think it's twice as hard if you don't share neurologies. Although, with my nt daughter she just sort of 'takes charge' emotionally in the areas I'm not good at. Like sharing joint role enactments, as I was writing in the ask and aspie thread. She is the one that regulates 'our' activities. It's her nature!

Well, let's see what Tuesday brings. Till then, I'll have to be finding and filling out forms at the DPI site - could be a worse memorial day - could be in a traffic accident or something, so filling out forms or not, still a weekend to be happy about. Here together all of us, a family. (Sniff sniff, God Bless us every one Tiny Tim....I see where my 9 year old gets her sense of drama, lol).

05-26-2007, 07:15 PM

Another thing you may want to consider...can you ask the school to video tape the meeting? In light of the mess, and the school's concerns about your "treatment" of their staff (cuz you're so violent, don't you know, lol), that maybe for the protection of the staff (wink, wink), it would be in their best interests to videotape the meeting? That way there would be a record of what happened if something happened later (like they try to have you arrested again?)

At the very least, do not go alone if at all possible. If you can get a trusted friend to just sit there quietly and take meticulous notes...anything to protect yourself, please try.

Love the letter, by the way. But I'm sure they won't understand your letter either. :rolleyes:

Take care,


05-26-2007, 09:52 PM
Oh, ((((((Milli)))))),

You don't give yourself enough credit. You're ALWAYS known what to do in here http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/heart-005.gif. You just haven't known how to get in touch with it. That's exactly what Vincent needs to learn.

When I used to work (I used to teach and support computers), there was a phrase "just-in-time learning" -- in other words, learn something "just in time" to teach it to someone else.

No one can know everything. You've been growing right along with your son. When more has been required, you've stepped right up. We all know how hard that's been for you http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/knuddel.gif.

http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/10.gif You are an awesome Mom, Milli.

BIG HUGS (and love).


PS: I agree with what Gwyn said about either videotaping the whole thing or getting someone that you trust to be there to take notes.

05-26-2007, 11:20 PM
Gwyn, hmmmm, wow I never thought of that. A video, I like it! I do a tape recorder. I gotta think about that! I do though have his case manager from the state come, it's like her only interest is Vince, but, she has gone to every IEP to support me, and has really really helped just by being a 'neutral' party in the room, know what I mean? Funny thing is, she was totally on school's side in the beginning, cause she doesn't know about autism really - and says she doesn't so I'm cool with that and don't hold her to the same standards as someone who claims to. Well, by the last IEP, she was like "I tried really hard to see the school's point and where they were coming from, but honestly at this point, they don't make any sense to me - and I tried to see their side I really did, but they don't have a side". So, that did make me feel better, but, it's not like she'll jump in and tell school they're full of poop or give them her opinion about how they don't make sense. I think she wants to be able to keep going to the IEP's or something, actually I'm not sure why she doesn't ball them out - I think that would be a bad professional move or something.

No one can know everything. You've been growing right along with your son. When more has been required, you've stepped right up. We all know how hard that's been for you http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/knuddel.gif.

Yes that's how I feel, like I've been growing with him. It would be way harder if I felt like I haven't been changing and growing, so that's made things easier. Scarier too, it's scary to change even when it's a good change.

But looking at the animated gif, I gotta ask, why are you making out with me???

Just kidding!!! :D
I couldn't resist being a smartypants.

Anyone remember the time I thought I was posting a gif of toothpaste to someone's child here on mgh, and if you looked at the tiny letters on the tube it said KY, as in the sex lubricant :o

05-26-2007, 11:30 PM
You're such a nut :D

I would think you wouldn't want to revive that KY rumor -- isn't that secreted away in the old archives!!??

I love talking to you. You make me laugh. You make me smile. I can really understand what G-d was doing when he put Vincent in your hands.

BIG HUGS (and love).


05-27-2007, 12:24 AM
Ugh, we had such a bad day. You're last nice thing you said, well I can't take credit today, for being a good mom at all.

I really blew my top with him, he just made me so mad. I just screamed and yelled at him for so long on and on, I feel bad now, but that don't help him cause I can't remove my words from his brain.

There's just this part of him that's beyond selfish, I know he knows better, I know it's not autism, he knows what items are mine or his sister's or dad's and it's like 'so what'. And every so many months I just have enough of feeling like everything in reach he feels it's ok to use and abuse and wreck. And today was one of those days.

Trust me, Vince isn't so lucky to have me every day. Most days, I'd like to think so, but today not so much.

It's like he does as he pleases at all times, not with big things but little things. But it's like all the time, cause I reach a point where I'm not willing to rag at him all day long, I don't want him to hear negative all the time (don't, no, stop it) pick your battles and all. But it's like dozens of little things, and also being as he can't go out with other boys and burn off some of that adhd, my household bears the whole brunt of it. And that, I have much difficulty understanding, cause I was always able to sit and be occupied on art or whatnot, where as he is that kind of boy that is just ALL BOY. Bam, smash, crash, boom, constantly rough and rugged...he can be very gentle, but not for long.

I actually wasn't going to talk about it, but, well I did anyhow. Some kind of confession I suppose, mostly, I just feel like a really bad mother today, and don't want anyone here thinking I'm something I'm not, ya know? I suppose I'm only human, so entitled, but I dunno. I don't want support for being such a wench today. I guess I just wonder, if there are days when anyone else feels like they were a really crappy mom. Looking back, what he did was nothing for me to get so upset over. (pretended he was taking a shower, but instead totally trashed the bathroom having 'fun')

05-27-2007, 01:50 AM
Oh, good Lord, ((((((Milli)))))).

We ALL have days like that. Some days you wish you could take back the day and do over. Some days you're really ashamed about your behavior.

What matters more than anything to the child is that you apologize -- "I'm sorry I yelled at you. I'm really tired and I'm having a bad day". The child needs to learn that when you get angry and yell, there's no permanent hate involved. If they learn that, they've learned one of the biggest life lessons.

All of us of who have heads that don't quite work 'right' understand. For me, it was a personality disorder and chronic clinical depression and suicide attempts. I wonder sometimes how much damage was done by me to my son because of my problems. I've learned, I guess just through aging (AKA 'growing up"), that I can't go back and do it over again. The only thing that I can do is talk to my son about what *it* (whatever *it* was) and explain to him what was going on. My son will be 39 this summer. He understands a lot of what happened to me when he was growing up. When I was 22, my younger brother committed suicide. Kicked me right to the ground :( I totally could not function, except for work, for 13 years. I had my son when I was 24. I shouldn't have. I was a big block of ice, frozen, broken, broken-hearted. Until I learned how to deal with my own crisis, I just couldn't cope with anything else.

When you talk about Vincent "knowing the difference", does he really?? When you apologize to him after you've yelled, does he understand what you did?? Does he understand what he did?? Does he understand that you're sorry??

Milli, I know exactly what you feel like -- in my case, "how can I raise a sane kid, when I not even sane myself"??

My Dad was a very strict, unemotional, unaffectionate, controlling person. Yet, I remember love -- in the early days. He had a drinking problem but it never interfered with his work. He got caught driving once and lost his license for a year. My brother and I had to take him to a co-worker's house for a year. It never happened again.

I was going through therapy in the months before my Dad died. I never knew he was a sick as he was. He hid it. I knew he had major kidney attacks and the doctor said if you get one when you're driving, you could kill yourself or someone else.

As part of the therapy, I wrote to my older half-brother and my father. I don't remember exactly what I wrote. In my Dad's letter, it was something about understanding what it was like to be depressed. Understanding what it was like to have no one believe you were physically sick. I never got an answer. Three months later he died from a major heart attack. I told him that I loved him. And I know that he heard me.

I got this idea -- mostly from thinking about me and my Dad -- that sometimes parents treat you in a certain way so that you will be able to cope with what you will run into when you grow up. So ... from his parents that came from the old country and were afraid of police and afraid of the government, he learned how to be "good" and "quiet so that you don't stand out".

From him, I learned how to cope when the medical community does not believe that you're sick. I got fibromyalgia 17 years ago. 17 years ago no one believed it existed. From him, I learned how to be depressed. And I learned how to tie shoes left-handed :cool: And I learned all the colors of the rainbow :D

I know my son has learned how to cope with a lot of difficulties. He's strong -- much stronger than me.

This may sound weird, but hey, you're talking with a Moose who thinks she can talk http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/moosemove.gif.

I don't think that there's just what you learn in school -- how to read. Or what you learn at home -- how to tie your shoes. Or out in the world -- how to drive on the right side of the street.

I think that there are lessons that come as part of your DNA. I believe that you will be faced with 'things' that you HAVE TO learn. I believe that The Universe puts events as lessons in front of us to teach us or to teach someone else.

How interesting that a child on the spectrum gets a Mom on the spectrum ;) How interesting that a child with a temper gets a Mom with a temper ;)

I think both of you have come together in this world and in this time because you both have things to teach each other and you both have things to learn.

Don't be so hard on yourself, Milli. Try better next time. Apologize when you make a mistake. And recognize the GOOD around you.

BIG HUGS (and love).

Barb http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/holding-hands.gif

05-27-2007, 04:47 PM
I could have written a lot of your post myself! It's really something how parallel all of our lives are...different details yes, but so similar in so many ways.

I was definitely not motherhood material when I had Vincent or Carmen. When she was 3, I drove myself to the Mental Hospital while she was at Headstart preschool, and told them what a 'loser' I was, feared I might lose it and hurt SERIOUSLY hurt them, I didn't trust myself anymore, it was that bad. I described my depression and bipolar to a tee (though I didn't call it that, didn't know what it was called). It was the only time in my life I was scared of myself, more than I was scared of the consequences of admitting how I felt - which I only hid so long cause I thought I should have more 'willpower' and get my sh!t together already. Long story short, my life did a turn around when I got the right medication. Never knew anger could be a 'choice'. I've mostly gotten through living 'in' the guilt of how the things I did and said hurt my kids in those days.

To my surprise, I've even gotten through the avalanche of hard feelings I harbored toward my ma and (to an extent) her husband. As well as my dad, his wife, and boatloads of caregivers that were not so nice. That's been a big load off that I didn't think would happen in my lifetime. Can't say it's forgive and forget, more like understand they were actually 'sick', unable to parent, unavailable to love me. Be it alcohol or depression or whatnot. They were heavily burdened with 'internal demons' or what ever. I don't excuse anything they did but feels so much better that it doesn't hurt so 'raw' anymore. It's finally my PAST.

After reading your post, I realize what was bothering me most deeply, is he DOESN'T know what made me so mad. Then again, he DOES know what he is allowed and not allowed to do, and proceeds to do as he pleases so often. I'm not even certain I do know what upset me so much at him yesterday to be honest. Just know I'm more comforted than I have been in the last 24 hours after reading your post to me. Thank you for that.

Also comforted you didn't 'make out with me' again http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/knuddel.gif HA! You know I'm just being a nut!

05-27-2007, 09:33 PM
Yeah, ((((((Milli)))))),

You keep thinking you're some kind of weird, unique alien from outer space 'thingie'. Actually, you're just like everybody else, except you have a tiny, slight, smidgen of cashew DNA -- which is I why I like you so much :D

OK-OK, you talked me into it. One for yesterday: http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/knuddel.gif And one for today: http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/knuddel.gif

There, does that make you feel better http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/hug3-1223.gif

BIG HUGS (and love).

Barb http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/show-kite.png

PS: This company has a lot of great books about anger and bullying Most of them are oriented toward kids -- which means the techniques would be easier to learn; http://www.mandbdistributors.com/booksanger2.html

There's a whole bunch of different techniques. One talks about using colors to control your behavior: red-yellow-green. When you 'see red' picture a stoplight.

Another one talks about creating scripts -- actually rehearsing words to say when you're angry.

Or using puppets.

Seems to me that once of your insurance providers or the school or any mental health counselors that are involved might be willing to prescribe and pray for some of these. Wouldn't hurt to ask :D

I think that's one of the huge failures in the schools, you're not taught how to be angry without hurting someone -- either physically or emotionally.

05-27-2007, 10:56 PM
I got these from a smiley site I bookmarked:





05-27-2007, 11:11 PM
mili, stop flagging yourself, none here has job's saintly patience to deal with a highly charged energetic, creative growing up boy, let him know that sometimes "mommy would get angry" :)

Video camera is far better than a tape recorder, we have tried that the voices were all mixed up or not clear.

05-27-2007, 11:39 PM
Moose, that site has a major amount of info! Very cool. I have to look more at it after the weekend. Geez you have a nice smiley resevoir!

Brainy, pretty pastel smilies!

Isabelle, can't help it. It'll pass, but when I blow up at Vince, it's like a trauma for both of us. Ya know?

We sure had a good day today, no shenannigans and usual defamation of the things I hold dear that have sentimental value. He helped use the heavy clippers to trim the tree and cut/stack the branches for brush removal. Tomorrow we get the dead bush...I think using the heavy clippers and the force it takes to squeeeeze them shut and clip branches does something for him sensory wise.

Today I did not gear my entire day around making Vince happy, and try to do 10 things at once, which, is likely how I wind up so frustrated. How do you say "I don't care if you're happy or think I'm fair"??? I need to do that withOUT guilt. I can do it with Carmen just fine, what's the problem I have being 'unfair' to Vince???

Be back :)

05-28-2007, 09:23 AM

That's weird what you said about the sensory...:eek:

When my son was in school, he had what's called dysgraphia -- it means the actual physical act of handwriting is difficult. Small motor control problem. He actually could NOT write; he could only print. He couldn't walk up and down stairs alternating his feet. He couldn't ride a bike. He had to spend so much EFFORT to write that it just overwhelmed everything else -- he couldn't hear, he couldn't learn -- he was so focused on the effort it took to write.

I worked with him on the bike riding. Excessively. In hindsight, I pushed him too hard, but, he did learn when he was about 8-1/2.

The school worked with him on patterning his legs for walking up and down the stairs. He finally got the alternating stairs 'thingie' around the same time -- 8-1/2.

But, he still could not do the handwriting.

A couple of years after he got out of school his father told him he would give him the barber shop if he'd learn how to become a barber. I'm thinking to myself "yeah, right, he's not going to be able to do that, he doesn't have the control of his hands that he needs". To my everlasting surprise, he took the class -- 1,000 hours -- and he can cut hair (almost as good as his father). The really amazing thing: he can use his hands well enough to handwrite now!!

That still amazes me.

It must have just been that so much practice with his hands in cutting the hair made all the connections that he needed for handwriting.

I was thinking maybe something like that would work for Vincent. Practice. Maybe puppets showing 'appropriate' behavior over-and-over again??

Maybe the difference between the way that you treat Carmen and Vince is because he reminds you of things that you don't like in yourself??

I don't know a lot about autism. Just what I read here. And I've read all the Barry Neil Kaufman books. The wiring to the brain is different, right?? Like me with my personality disorder and with my depression?? Like my son with his hands and legs not having any control in the small muscles??

I wonder sometimes if Vince could be shown how to act -- like in acting in play. Or acting out a story with puppets or toy soldiers or ... Do they have acting in his school??

Maybe he just doesn't know HOW??

And he needs to be shown HOW??

You said that there are some people Vince really likes at his school and he will work for them. And others that he won't. Do you know what the difference in technique is??

My son was in public school until about 10th grade. Would your son's school have shown your son how to walk up and down stairs if he did not know how?? They wouldn't have -- right!! Vincent needs to go to a school that will really teach him what he needs to learn.

I don't know if anything that I've said made any sense at all. It's just what you said about the force of using clippers making a sensory connection. That just surprised me so much that it was so much like my son not being able to write until he could control his small muscles. Just caused me to see such a huge connection between my son and your son.

I hope you have a nice holiday, sugar. It's rainy here in the morning but it's supposed to go away. I had wanted to visit the family cemetery ikn the town where my grandmother used to live. But, can't take the scooter out in the rain. I haven't been there in decades. I guess seeing all Memorial Day celebrations made me think of my three uncles...

BIG HUGS (and love).

Barb http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/thanksforbeingthere.gif

05-28-2007, 01:22 PM
Oh sure you make sense! And all the 'learning' Vince needs about any social situation, that he will get with RDI, so thank goodness we're totally working on that every day.

The using the clippers for him, it's about the deep pressure stuff...little hand clippers wouldn't work, these are clippers that cut branches up to 3 inches thick. They are heavy, you have to apply lots of pressure, actions using them are sloooow and deliberate. He also seems to loose all 'hyperness' when I take him to the beach and he fills a 5 gallon bucket, walks the heavy thing up to the water retention area he pours it into in the sand, he does it over and over, then breaks the levy wall he built so it all pours back into the lake.

I think the reason it's easier to say no to Carmen than Vince without the high level of 'guilt' is cause I know Carmen can accept the 'no' and move on. Vince can't, it builds in him 'no' by 'no' as being soooo unfair to him and ugh, that just gets me. He doesn't have any sense that there is a reason I say no and he just has to accept it, that I'm the mom and he's the kid and when mom's say no it's acceptable, with him you'd think I'm reinacting Jim Crow laws. And I harbored so much of that inability to understand hierarchy as a kid, I don't want him to have that constant 'grudge' like I did I suppose. So, that's something "I" have to work on, and he'll have to accept.

Like this morning, I just wanted to see the weather for the day. Carmen was watching some cartoon, I grabbed the remote and said I was only going to flip it for a second. She whined a bit, I flipped it back thinking "whatever, I don't even want to deal with the attitude" and then felt irritable. I then thought, "this is exactly why you wind up blowing your top every so many months" and I went back into the living room, flipped the tv back and said "why do I have to ask to use my own tv in my own home, that's stupid", I saw the weather for the day, and flipped it back. The hardest part for me was doing so unincumbered by any feelings of guilt or irritation.

It's like, I have to learn to cut off feeling too much about what my kids feel, that's not good. I have to feel more about what I feel. They're not 6 months old crying to be fed or some urgent need for survival. So, once again, I just need to work on that phase "I" need to go through of "well, if ya don't like it, tough" and not feel like I want to make them feel life is so fair. Since it's not. I had a ma with seemingly NO connection to my heart and feelings, and, talking to her today it's true she had no clue how I was feeling or what I was experiencing in life at any age. She's starting to now finally, and for the last good 5 years I'd say. So, not to get too Freudian, but that hunger for heart to heart connection, I 'used' my kids for that heart to heart connection I never had, but, it's a one way line...they don't feel my heart (of course) cause they are children and I'm the parent. And, it's fine I feel their feelings more than they feel mine, but, I have to keep a better balance, lots less guilt on my part for not making them 'happy' 24/7.

I feel like I need a guilt colonic, hee hee.

05-28-2007, 04:08 PM
I feel like I need a guilt colonic, hee hee.


Didja ever think that what you're being fed is NOT 'guilt'??!! Maybe they're feeding you 'carrots' and you're calling it 'guilt'!! Or maybe -- they're feeding you 'geeze, Ma, not again!! = exasperation' and you're calling it 'guilt'.

Maybe instead of a 'guilt colonic', you need a new 'labeling machine': http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/labeling-machine.jpg :D


Barb http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/niceday.gif

05-29-2007, 01:42 AM
Oh! I know they're not trying to make me feel guilty, they're just being kids. I'm the one with the 'childhood memories' hangup, so respond to my kids in ways that they won't feel like I did as a kid. I feel like Jim Carey on The Grinch when he smack himself in the head with a giant hammer to 'take care of those pesky memories'. Hee hee.

No, this for sure is a 'me' thing, the kids don't try to make me feel guilty, or stretched 10 different directions. I have this real bad reoccuring parenting thing, I 'think' I'm being strict and cause they have chores and so on they aren't spoiled, etc... And I'm on top of my 'game', then, about every 5-6 months the bottom falls out and I realize I'm hearing complaints all day long, realize Vince is the king of the unending argument with no point that doesn't involve some storm system somewhere, ugh.

Anyhow. I just seem to have trouble feeling ok getting MY way. Hard to explain.

Did much better today though. Vince and I were sawing and cutting this huuuuge dead bush on the side of the house, then stacking it. Man. Took about 2 hours, we were wiped out. He kept asking for a break, for a drink of water, some weather show was on, etc... I didn't feel a bit guilty. I wanted that bush done and I wanted my son to do it with me, and that's it. Now, I just need to keep that 'attitude' more often. Instead I tend to think, "Oh, well he helped a little, he loves weather so dearly I should let him watch his favorite show". Fooey!

Yeah, we did great today. Even had him climb on the brush pile to smash it down, it was huge, like 8ft long and 5ft high. My hands and back are trashed. Then when I was cleaning and sorting all my tools, cause they tend to spread out all over the house, he asked to help several times. Not like him! So that was real nice to hear.

Just wait, if I get my act together he'll be tearing carpet out and laying flooring down with me. I finally found flooring that looks like wood, that I can put in the basement...cause I think the Brady Bunch want their carpet back. Heh heh.

OH, and he needs to help me make a pond where the huuuuge bush used to be, so that'll be cool, right up his alley. I already got him some cattails to grow in it, he loves those.

05-30-2007, 12:39 AM
Ok, I gotta tell ya I've really felt like for the last week, I been 'off my meds' so to speak. I'm just a mess in terms of emotionally, happy to angry in seconds. Today topped it off for me getting balled out (by a stranger) but I don't even want to go there. Cause finally, some hope for my kiddo to not have 5th grade go down as trauma he'll need to 'recover' from.

You have to read my last email to her, for this to make sense...The dir of student services wrote:

Dear Lisa, Our office was closed from 4:00 p.m. on Friday until today for the Memorial Day holiday. I spoke with principal on the phone this morning before I had to leave for an appointment and SPE staff is prepared for Vincent to come for OT and SPL, as your Friday email said that you were going to bring him today. Our position remains that the IEP team will meet on Friday to discuss your concerns and consider your requests. However, speech lady and ot lady will see Vincent this week and they will attend the IEP meeting on Friday to discuss continued sessions. Please call speech and ot ladies to make plans for how Vincent will get to and from his sessions. See you Friday. Thanks,

So I responded:


I will email speech and ot ladies (what is SPE?) and call tomorrow morning to arrange the times for Vincent. I think this is going to help him greatly, both in therapeutic and emotional value.

I didn't drop off Vincent today since I had no confirmation via email or phone, I didn't know it was all set. Also, it seems easiest for all if I just pick him up and drop him off for his Speech and OT times.

So no worry about transportation. If a bus can be arranged that's better but we definitely don't want him to wait on that arrangement, so will take him for the few days remaining, not a problem.

Mr. & Mrs.

then I emailed the speech and ot staff but will call cause I suspect just as they did other staff at school, admin routes all my emails to them!! Is that a federal offense messing with 'e'mail?

Dear * and *,

I received an email from dir of student services that Vince can receive his related services! I sent her an email back, and copies to you so you'd have a heads up.

I have old schedules so want to be sure I'm on the same page with you. Will you please email or call first thing in the morning to tell me when to drop him off and pick him up for his Speech and OT. If it's easier just phone ***-**** and leave a message if I don't pick up (might be driving Carmen to school) I'll check my machine constantly. If I have to come a few times a day, no problem. I'm just glad he can return to related services.

I anticipate success much success and happiness for him tomorrow, he misses you all very much. But dir of student ser email said SRE, I don't know what that means, he is to receive only Speech/Language and OT. Please, if it even seems he will become escalated for any reason, rather than put him in isolation, let me know and I'll come get him right away (I'm literally one minute away).

Vince was in bed when I read the email, so he doesn't know he's going, he will be so happy. He was crying in front of school today missing you *, said something about cards, "I know she is missing doing cards with me". When I try to tickle the back of his neck he says as though I should know better, "Not like that, like Ms. *".

Thank you all,

05-30-2007, 01:15 AM
Mili, How Do You Find The Time To Write Sooo Muuuch I Envy You

05-30-2007, 02:03 AM
By writing it at 1am *wink. And in between loading old cabinets, the old carpeting, flooring, subflooring and so on that I have to break all into little pieces to drive to the dump...cause I'm not willing to pay $200 for a dumpster.

05-30-2007, 02:22 AM
Oh, ((((((Milli)))))) http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_2_104.gif

I don't doubt at all that your emotions are all over the place. This has been a real rough patch for you. You have been basically fighting in a -- what is that that the wrestlers use?? -- oh, CAGE match -- where they throw everybody in the ring inside a cage, lock the door and see who comes out standing at the end. I'm glad to see it's you and Vincent still standing http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_201.gif!!

I like cattails myself :) Sounds like Vince has got a real fondness for fresh air and nature.

I think "SPE" means "Special Education" -- another useless abbreviation, takes longer to spell it than to say it :D

I'm glad Vince is getting to go back for awhile. I almost wish the school year was longer so he could get more days :) Is there anything planned for the Summer for him yet??

It's been a lot of hard work. But, you stood bye your boy and fought hard. Good job, ((((((Milli))))))!! BIG HUGS (and love).

Barb http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v90/moose53/PICTURES/cat-tails.jpg

05-30-2007, 09:32 AM
Yeah be nice if he had more school time left, but really I'm just so relieved he'll be going at all. He needs closure to his year, and to his elementary school since he'll be in middle school next year.

He goes on Tue/Thur to speech and OT, so not till tomorrow. He doesn't know yet, I hate to tell him until tomorrow morning for fear they'll take it away from him. Ya know?

Plans for the summer are less than usual, but still great. He'll be going to 4 different 'adventure day camps' each for a week where you go swimming, caving, hiking, tubing down a river, canoing, all the stuff he loves and on Thursday of those weeks, a sleep over in a tent. It's not special needs kids, so, YES I'm nervous, but hopeful.

Then, the end of June we have our big trip, first vacation in 12 years, planned to go from Wisconsin to Florida on a plane no less. We'll be there 7 FULL days, 9 all together if you include the 2 days we travel, so we can't wait.

Then lots of RDI of course. Which, is becoming such a natural part of the day. I just have to keep conscious of my objectives before we do anything, which, usually is not about the task but the emotion sharing of it. What a hassle (for an old crusty aspie like me, hee hee).

So, hopefully today will be a better day. I'm just glad he get to see the staff he loves so much, tomorrow. It'll only be for a total of an hour, which is fine. Cause he'll miss lunch (his fav of course) and might want to stay longer than an hour, I better have something tasty planned for when his speech and ot are done so he'll be willing to come back to the old drudge, aka, mom - you know how that goes!

05-30-2007, 11:36 AM
Well, THAT was an abrupt turn around! So, now you know the school does not want to go to due process. Its good for Vince that he won't be shut out completely for the rest of the year...but really, they could have done this weeks ago. Did they ever send his missed work?

Happy to see that Vince will get these services for the few remaining days of the school year...hope he thoroughly enjoys it!

05-30-2007, 09:29 PM
Here here! Sadly, it's only going to amount to three hours for three days. But, the alternative would have been so much worse, complete amputation from all those people and the school forever (he'll be in middle school next year).

They did finally send home some homework, randomly stapled together, no telling how much to do in a day, which as I already knew, he's not doing academics there, I mean having a second grade education by sixth grade (at best) was surely a good clue.

I WILL pursue Due Process, but first I need to go to our Friday IEP, clearly state what I expect because it is appropriate for Vince. They don't have to agree. That's what due process is for and the issues they refuse I will pursue. I have the dir of student services stating they have received training in RDI and it's on his IEP, that is not so, I have his staff saying they never received training. I realize they are not obligated to do RDI, but it is appropriate for him, I have his progress and evidence based research to back it up as well as the statements from the dir of student services (on tape and to outside agencies)...though I doubt any of that matters, it will be a matter of egos and money cause I will expect them to get an orientation with his consultant and work with her during the next school years to come. IF they do, they are going to be gobsmacked at how everything I claimed about it, was true, and not just for Vince but all kids on the spectrum. They will in the long run, save a fortune in aides and FBA's and all kinds of 'we don't know what else to do' interventions.

He is though coming along GREAT with RDI, just love it. I'm finally 'getting' it, which sure makes it easier to do...actually necessary to do.

Today he and I loaded 500 pounds!!! of junk into the back of my Honda Element (the seats fold up). Old flooring we removed that was outside harboring insect colonies, just hoards of junk dh keeps throwing on 'the pile' that is hidden from view on the side of the duplex you can't really see. The most awesome thing, Vince did a new thing...coregulation. Our task was to empty the car into the dumpster at the dump. HE, orchestrated this activity giving each of us roles, but JOINT rolls. When he'd see me struggle with something heavy, instead of being oblivious on his own he realized his role was to help me. When we threw things in the dumpster he'd say "no, together" and we'd 1-2-3 heave! Neither he or I are very 'joint'. I like doing my thing, him too, other's 'helping' feels like an unwanted intrusion, but there we were...1-2-3! And it didn't feel awful like I thought it would, some invasion of my 'thing', my space, didn't feel like effort which I thought it would. Just thinking about him interacting with me or anyone for that matter, feels like EFFORT. Yet, it wasn't. It was downright natural. Gonna take me a while to digest it actually, it just went so well, I have no 'autism hangover' from our venture together.

05-30-2007, 10:55 PM
Oh my goodness, ((((((Milli)))))) :jumping up and down:

I *KNEW* there was a key; I knew it :D !!

Vince noticing that someone else needs help is a VERY BIG deal, isn't it :) Oh my word!! :D

I just feel like dancing down the hallway, whistling :D :D

I'm so glad that he's getting to go back these few days. It'll seem like the transition time that all kids go through at the end of the school year -- a little bit of work and then moving on to next year. I'm so glad you stood your ground on this.

He's been working real around the house, hasn't he. Well, actually, both of you have. Bet you're both sleeping good at night.

I like the plans that you've set up for Vince for the summer. All the things that he likes to do. It'll take away from some of the bad stuff this year. You said the other kids are NT, right -- maybe that'll give him a chance to see and mirror a different type of behavior.

I haven't read about this technique that you've been talking about. I want to find out more about it.

I've always believed that if you're really committed to a child or to an adult that's having problems, that there is a way to reach them.

I remember when I was a home health aide, one of my ladies was blind and had Alzheimer's. She used to hit the other home health aides with her cane :eek: All she wanted was for everyone to leave her stuff in the same place so that she could find it. She never hit me. I liked her :)

I'm glad you guys have a nice vacation to look forward to AND a clean backyard :D

BIG HUGS (and love).


05-31-2007, 12:09 AM
>>>>>Vince noticing that someone else needs help is a VERY BIG deal, isn't it :)

Yes, and it only took three weeks....it never dawned on me, to let him be part of a 'joint role enactment'...not my helper or whatnot, but US doing things TOGETHER. I think it's just natural for mom's to do it themselves (to get it done right!), or assign it as a chore or task. Which is fine, when that child has other children to experience having 'joint roles' with....like the example I gave before about kids playing games like jump rope, where they shift roles naturally between twirlers or the jumper.

>>>>>I just feel like dancing down the hallway, whistling :D :D

Do it naked with a pineapple on your head, hee hee.

>>>>>I'm so glad you stood your ground on this.

Knowing he would again assault his inept staff who aggravates him to violence, I hadn't much choice.

>>>>>He's been working real around the house, hasn't he.

UNbelievably, what would have been work has been 'joint' efforts, and effortless, and satisfying such as doing the junk pile together. Dunno that it was 'fun' but it was gratifying to both of us, and I don't know why? It just was, it was a task accomplished and well done - together.

>>>>>>I like the plans that you've set up for Vince for the summer. All the things that he likes to do.

I do that every year with the help of his state case manager giving funds for the activities from his waiver. Dunno how we could do so much for him otherwise so I am very grateful.

>>>>>>You said the other kids are NT, right -- maybe that'll give him a chance to see and mirror a different type of behavior.

ACK!!! I make a cross with my fingers and rebuke 'mirrored behavior', ew ew ew. That's what I did all my life, memorized behaviors, memorized behavioral skills. It's the best way to become exhausted by the simplest of things (like the joint activities above) cause you manually think of what you are 'supposed' to do, rather than neurologically feel yourself as part of things, so gain the function intrinsically, from which the skills follow naturally. You wind up a shell, I'm not even exagurating, a severely depressed incompetent feeling shell who no longer even knows what you feel, cause you spend all your time trying to 'be' others. You wind up all other, and no self. Kind of like a 50's housewife in an abusive marriage, smile and iron with your black eye, 'it's ok, next time i won't burn his steak'.

Does that make sense??? I really want it to. It's such a vital part of my 'cause' for people on the spectrum. Skill is NOTHING without function, it's a temporary and poor substitute for feeling fulfilled, at best.

>>>>>I haven't read about this technique that you've been talking about. I want to find out more about it.

What you do yourself as an nt, that asd folks cannot, that is what RDI gives to asd folks, with you as the 'teacher' of nt development that has not yet happened. Think of a persons total development, what if you could break it down like an amino acid chain, so of the 16 developmental milestones to be 'nt' a person with asd is lacking 5 of those 16. Well, since it a chain, those 5 effect ALL the other milestones, even if they have developed and are fine...you have those 5 'weak links'.

So let's say 11 of the links are 1/2" thick, and 5 are barely 1/8" thick, that is autism.
Say 11 are 1/2" thick and 5 are barely 1/4" thick, that is aspergers.
Say 11 are 1/2" thick and 5 are juuuuust under 1/2" thick, that is your husband.

RDI does not add or take away links, does not add or take away from the person or personality any more than a baby maturing into toddlerhood, childhood, adulthood. RDI develops the 'thin' links. When you do RDI with a consultant, you the parent thicken those links, those developmental milestones that did not develop, and the consultant tells you how.

Did that make sense? The best way I can explain things, is describing the picture I see in my head, also known as an analogy.

>>>>>I've always believed that if you're really committed to a child or to an adult that's having problems, that there is a way to reach them.

There is a way, yes, certainly, and in every case. Doesn't mean you can find it. Doesn't mean cause you love that person with all your heart and being, it's follows that you will 'automatically' know what to do. No one would expect a mom to love her child out of cancer or epilepsy, same for autism. Yet somehow, I think we expect this of ourselves in a sense. Or maybe that's just me, or that was me. Now that I now a person that knows how to reach him, I'm all ears (should be impressive statement considering how verbose I am, heh).

>>>>>>I remember when I was a home health aide, one of my ladies was blind and had Alzheimer's. She used to hit the other home health aides with her cane :eek: All she wanted was for everyone to leave her stuff in the same place so that she could find it. She never hit me. I liked her :)

Awwwww. That's so nice she had you to understand her. And see how natural it was to understand her, when you have the same neurology...that's what happens when you finally have autism made clear by someone that 'speaks' both nt and asd, like our consultant.

>>>>>I'm glad you guys have a nice vacation to look forward to AND a clean backyard :D

Yes indeed! Though the dog is certainly working overtime on not keeping it clean for long, the stinker (pun).

I don't mean to be so crazy about RDI all the time, it's certainly not the 'program' or what ever one would call it, it's cause RDI is this invisible parallel plain of existence I felt was there, visually and literally, in about high school I imagined there was an invisible plane existing while our 3D world was going on. Everyone around me had an invisible self that could come out and interact with other invisibles, kind of like on a movie when someone dies, the body is there but a ghost comes out. But I had no invisible so had only one plane. Anyhow, when you wait until your 40's to FEEL what you have memorized doing all your life, to 'see' a lie on someones face, to 'feel' you are wanted instead of never being sure, to 'share' a smile, it's indescribable, and it's happening before my eyes to my child, as it also happens to me. How the Croc Hunter felt about being a Wildlife Warrior and about Crocodiles, I feel about giving asd's a chance to experience a joy that has no description really, the joy of other humans.

BIG HUGS and my Love back to YOU,

05-31-2007, 09:40 PM

Your post brought tears to my eyes. I'm THAT happy for you and Vince! I also really appreciate your insight into "mirroring behaviors" and not knowing how you are supposed to "feel". You've given me some things to think about regarding those issues for my daughter. She isn't neurotypical and won't ever be neurotypical, so why should we (and as is parents and school) try to force her to be something she's not when what she's doing isn't that non-neurotypical if you take time to get to know her? What's wrong with NOT being neurotypical (whatever that is :rolleyes: )? I mean, yeah, you don't want her dancing around naked with pineapples on her head at school, but at home? Why not? LOL. Love ya Milli!

At least one good thing has come from our nightmare situation...it's that I'm getting a better understanding of how she learns, thinks, feels, and reacts since I'm spending so much more time with her so I'm better able to determine what she needs so that I can ask professionals for help with getting what she needs and am able to provide the research to back up what she needs (not like the school will give it to her anyway, but ya know? I'll ask anyway.)

If you need any help at all with your Due Process, please let me know. I'm pretty convinced I'm heading down that path as well. I'm working on the state complaints as I write this too (needed a break).

Hugs to you and Vince. Happy dance, happy dance :cool:


05-31-2007, 11:44 PM
About your daughter being/not being nt. Yeah, being nt can really give you some great tools, socially speaking. But there are nt's that are unhappy, suicidal, maybe cause they can 'read' so much. They still have a sad life, or maybe some clinical depression or whatnot. Nt is just those '5 links' in the chain being a certain thickness. My wish for my kids during pregnancy and still has not changed, their happiness number one, 'health' be it neurological or what not is number two. I'd rather have a happy child with an autism dx than a sad on that's nt. But, Vince is not happy, want friends, wants much he currently cannot have because of autism. That's my reason for RDI, not a pursuit of nt-ness. Though, clinically he will be more nt as we go through RDI, I have no idea and no ambition related to getting an nt dx, just a happy child who will become a happy adult like any other parent here.

Moose I'm concerned I said something in an offensive way, please give me he!! if I did, I could handle that way better than offending you cause you've been wonderful to me when I am most venerable.

Gwyn, I'm glad you understood my negativity about mirrored behaviors, and that it had meaning for you. When Vince was first dx'd, I totally went for the 'behavior', I mean that's exactly how I survived so yeah, I thought that's what everyone did, memorized how to act, but I thought I just was really stupid so didn't ever learn all I should to act right most of the time. Now that I'm experiencing 'feeling' things, then the behavior following naturally, holy cow. No effort, no conscious thinking, it just sort of happens.

I think it's amazing you can figure out so much about your daughter and what works for her, on your own. I was not able to do that with Vincent, maybe we have too many similarities? I will most certainly pursue Due Process, if you can post a link of the form to file a complaint, I need to get that done asap before 45 days is up I think...how long do I even have, before filing Due Process? I don't know a thing about it.

05-31-2007, 11:58 PM
Woah forgot to post...Vince went to Speech and OT today. He was on cloud nine when we got there, practically climbed out of the car before it stopped when he saw his Speech lady. He was smiling so big, about knocked her over running into her arms, they were both all smiles. I just love it, when my child is cherished as he deserves. It was so uplifting for me too, not just Vincent.

The OT lady then walked him out to the car, we talked a bit. She's been with him for years. Is so good with him, both OT ladies he works with are. It was so great to see him with that staff that knows him, cares about him, are competent in skill and love for him to work well with him. Know what I mean? They're just people that belong in a people skills type job like a school, there expertise and education puts the cherry on it.

IEP tomorrow, to discuss/clarify what I expect for his 6th grade year. Short IEP, just 1/2 hour, I'm kind of done discussing what he must have, which is his IEP followed, including them being trained by his RDI consultant about how to work with him, and continual follow up throughout the year, I suggest video tapes e/o wk just as I send. That's it. It's on the IEP, it's 'appropriate' for him. I know it will cost money, I know they'll say no, and off to Due Process we'll go then. Fine, cause that's not something I can do anything about.

I have yet to receive my 'invitation' to the IEP, another law not followed, like it matters, grrrrr. I did however receive an invitation to a DIFFERENT IEP about different topics, with a 'team' that does not now, and will not in 6th grade, work with him. Figure that one out???? I let them know, I will not attend - it is the same day and 1/2 hour earlier than the IEP I requested. Dh and my ma believe they were going to try and bait me and try and get me emotional, so they could call the cops.

Wish me luck, send prayers and good thoughts for Vincent :D

Thank You,

06-01-2007, 12:19 AM
I did however receive an invitation to a DIFFERENT IEP about different topics, with a 'team' that does not now, and will not in 6th grade, work with him. Figure that one out???? I let them know, I will not attend - it is the same day and 1/2 hour earlier than the IEP I requested. Dh and my ma believe they were going to try and bait me and try and get me emotional, so they could call the cops.

Oh, this has me worried. Was it, by any chance the topics that you had requested to be discussed at an IEP meeting? Do you suppose they are doing CYA in anticipation of due process? Is this so they can say they offered and you turned them down? Aren't you sick to death of trying to guess what they're up to? Especially when all they should be up to is helping your kid? Will they be holding that IEP without you being there?

Wish me luck, send prayers and good thoughts for Vincent

Absolutely, and prayers for you, too!

06-01-2007, 01:16 AM
I'm sure it's a CYA type of thing, maybe I should go, maybe not....I never agreed to, she set it up anyway - yes I'm sick of guessing.

If they really wanted to discuss Vincent returning to school, continuing with related services, it would have been a much better time to do so over 5 weeks ago when I was begging them to. Funny this comes up first now.

I just want to set the record straight for the new staff, about what we have experienced, what Vince has experienced, what we expect because IT WORKS. I can show on the IEP that they have agreed to it (RDI) and let them know I expect it to happen. They'll say they'll consider it. I'll talk to Gwyn about how to fill out the Due Process forms.

I really really really believe somehow some way I can be a part under the guidance of our RDI consultant, change forever how schools treat our kids with autism. And I'm not stopping at less, cause why should our kids get less than what they need. Gets me feeling stubborn when I think about it.


Mother's Heart
06-01-2007, 11:47 AM
hmm. two thoughts:
Have you considered making a contact somehow and verify that they actually intend to hold the 'second' iep, the one that you want to attend. If you haven't received official notice of the meeting perhaps they think they've overridden this one? Do it by saying you want to confirm the time or something, instead of asking if they will be having the meeting.

Then instead of attending the first one you could respond not that you cannot attend but that you cannot attend at that time. They are required to hold an iep at a time convenient for the PARENTS. Therefore, you can request the first one be rescheduled at a time that you can attend...if you don't mind implying that you're willing to attend one with the agenda they've proposed. Then they would have to reschedule it to occur at another time, after the other one. ff you just respond that you cannot make it then they can go ahead and hold it without you. make any sense? Then the process automatically goes onto another timeline where

Mother's Heart
06-01-2007, 11:48 AM
well, phooey! I thought I posted this much earlier. too late now.
Anxious to hear how things went today.

Thrilled to hear Vince had good ot/sp visits this week and that he got to go back into school with a positive outcome. not much time left in 6th grade.

06-01-2007, 09:29 PM

You're in Wisconsin, right? Hope I remembered right. Here's a link to the Wisconsin Due Process procedures:


If you scroll down the page to the second paragraph, there's a link that opens a "sample" document in Adobe Acrobat (which is a free program if you don't have it already). It's a blank form that you'd need to fill out. What they want to know is why you're requesting a hearing, and how you would like to see the problem resolved (very important!). You MUST also document your child's name, address, school, and school district, otherwise, your case can be tossed out and will need to be refiled.

What you'll need to do is recap everything that has happened (good thing you've got a written record here!). You'll also have to provide the district with a copy (it's the law).

Then, you're all set. A hearing officer will be assigned and will mail you a letter letting you know when the hearing is set. Be forewarned, though, that the district might try to challenge the sufficiency of your claim, and will do everything possible to drag things out. But I would think in this case, you could ask for an expedited hearing, which would speed up the process. You could also ask for mediation, which would not prevent the due process from going forward, BUT with everything that's happened, I don't recommend it for you.

Let me know what I can do to help, and please let us know what happened today when you feel up to it.

Take care,


06-02-2007, 12:09 AM
The IEP was fine. It was with the new school, and not with the dir of student services that pretty much destroys all chances of communication. I was told the 'first' meeting, that I never did agree to attend that they held anyhow, had just finished before we got there. Ok by me.

We went through and changed the BIP a bit, it will be reviewed and changed even more but for now no isolation room, no 'manhandling' him. They will call me instead - which the current BIP says, but as you all know here it wasn't ever done, not once all year. Vince better hope they don't call me, mommy don't play like that. I do stick up for him having to obey the teacher's authority in front of him, my gosh if I didn't do that he'd be uncontrollable for sure. Behind the scenes, I can speak on Vincent's behalf, anyhow, they seemed happy to know I have not been cool with his 'big fish in a little pond' attitude or speech at his elementary school, never was.

It felt good to have the new staff hear how I am, since I have to wonder what they've heard so far, ya know?

I let them know I expect them to get training from Vincent's RDI consultant because she has such effective methods of learning with him. They were all good and fine with it, and clarified this isn't something school would pay for. I interrupted and said "well see, I'm asking that you do. The dir of student services says you all are trained in RDI, and you are not, and RDI is in the IEP, so how can the IEP be implemented without training. So, I ask that you receive training prior to his school year beginning, then, 3 weeks after it begins the consultant can come out and observe for a day and consult with you all" and it 'seemed' they agreed. I'll have to see. I would figure I'll get a summary of the IEP.

I will explain later, that I ask this method (RDI) be done because not only is it so effective at home, but nothing else with him has been, he's not at grade level, not in the least retrictive environment due to behaviors, has a BIP for behaviors...one of the points of implementing RDI into Vincent's curriculum, is so there'd be no need for a BIP, let alone behaviors that would impede learning. RDI is evidence based, works for him, I have his state case manager and therapist who has known him for 7 years to vouch for that. So it's not a claim I'm making, I do understand many parents want school to do many 'therapies', this is not the case with RDI, it's how he learns effectively. Without being shut in a closet and injuring staff anyhow.

The Speech Therapist is really in tune with Vince, I hope I'm not fooled or something, but I just reeeeally like her. It's not cause of 'our' relationship, but cause of her and Vincent's relationship. I asked that she contribute anything to the BIP that she felt should be there, she was the only one at the IEP that will work with him next year and also does this year.

I was offered and accepted compensatory OT and Speech for the time Vincent missed. And they were figuring on doing that at the new school, before the new year begins. I thought that was a super idea.

No compensatory related services were offered for the time he missed them without a doctor's not. That's bogus but I didn't even talk about it, since I've made myself clear, and since they had the Speech lady tell me - I like her, and don't want to make her a messenger like his old school did, having her tell me. So, I figure I can file due process for compensatory speech and ot not offered because of no doctor's note....cause he is entitled to that without the note for pete sakes.

I like his new case manager, she's young, has a good sense of humor, had her hair in a pony tail and no make up and a red W someone had drawn on her cheek. When I asked if she had any training in RDI she said no right away, no defensiveness, etc.... I let them all know I'm not now and never would criticize them for not knowing RDI or anything, cause I am a student in RDI myself, by far no expert, I just want them to be willing to learn what works for Vincent, and that's why I ask.

The RDI consultant was on the phone via conference call, cripe she's articulate!! I'd try to say something, struggle, she'd intervene and I'd point at the phone and say, "yeah, that." I felt she spoke very well with the LEA at this meeting (who thank God was not the dir of student services) but the school psychologist at this new school. I think I like her, she seems no nonsense so I like that a lot. But it's not like she doesn't smile, not that kind of no nonsense.

Vincent's case manager from the state, who decides what gets funded or not, was there. She's been to all the IEP's. She seems very much on Vincent's side, I really like that, cause if I'm wrong I want to know. She really made a nice explanation of the wonderful changes she's seen in Vince with RDI, and how effective it is, and how effective I am!

So, I can't turn back time, and hope from this point forward Vincent receives an education, one that is at his grade level, one that fits him, the one he deserved all along. Ya know? I will not just forget about all the crap the other school did, I'll be there for any parent that needs me, and will pursue justice for banning me, sticking him in that room, all they ways in which they did not follow his IEP...everything is documented. I doubt anything will 'happen' to school because of it, but for sure nothing will if I let it slide. Gotta at least try to make it better for the next kid and mom that goes there, ya know?

This thread is a longie...I'm happy for now there's a better ending to it, and future for Vincent on the horizon (I hope!!!). We'll see when I get the summary of this IEP. Too soon to tell. Was darn nice not getting arrested though, I'll take that as a good sign.

Thank you ALL,
I'll be back here with any new school news...I sincerely hope this could help some other child someday - dunno how it would help, but just hope it does.

Thank you thank you all so much, you just don't know how 'dark' it felt sometimes, and I had you all to come to here.


06-02-2007, 03:43 AM

What a relief finally to have a meeting go well with the new school. I hope for your sake and Vincent's that this school (& staff) will be just what he needs.

As for that other meeting being held without you being present....you already know it's illegal to have an IEP meeting without you under these circumstances and that you can (and hopefully will) file a complaint with the Dept of Ed and forward a copy to the school.

I just have to wonder if whatever you agreed to with the new school trumps anything they would have come up with at the earlier meeting. I mean, obviously it does, it just makes me wonder what they're up to. What I wonder is, since the new school seems like they're on the right track, can you contact them about the meeting the other school held? Because wouldn't he have two IEPs at this point? One from the old school, one from the new, and you're "confused" because one school says one thing and the new school says another? Is it the same school district? I'm just wondering if you couldn't get help with some of these compliance issues if it's the same district but different staff. Does this make any sense?

Anyway, I will keep my fingers crossed about the new school.

06-02-2007, 04:07 AM
Just wanted to clarify a little more, since I know what I'm thinking but having trouble expressing it.

The school district is responsible for providing educational services, which are provided through the schools. Just because the elementary school was stupid and didn't provide FAPE does not negate the fact that Vince didn't receive FAPE and that he is still owed services. So if they are denying compensatory services, then yes you could go the due process route.

This other school has tried to paint a picture of you as being some crazy out-of-control, need-to-file-a-restraining-order against parent. BUT, since the elementary school IEP team held an IEP meeting that you notified them in advance that you could not attend, which is ILLEGAL and they know it and know you know it, now it's the district that is failing Vince, not that you're a crazy, need-to-file-a-restraining-order against psycho parent.

So, what I'm wondering is...if you write to the school psychologist what happened (quoting the law, which I can give you if you need it - you know, as I understand it, IDEA says that a parent must be a part of the IEP team and that the district must do x,y,z before a meeting can be held w/o a parent, and since they met w/o you, and this is what happened at that meeting - providing they fill you in -that you were concerned with whether or not decisions made at the first meeting would prevent Vince from getting whatever it is you agreed to at the second IEP meeting). By doing this, you could establish procedural violations, which may put you in a better position to help get Vince get what he needs. Like do this and I won't file a complaint.

I don't know. I don't want you to get off on the wrong foot with the new school, but at the same time, he is owed those services, and Due Process can literally be dragged out years...

I just hope I'm making sense. In any event, you have to do what's best for you and Vince, and please know that we'll support whatever decision you make.

Take care,


06-02-2007, 04:07 PM
>>>>As for that other meeting being held without you being present....you already know it's illegal to have an IEP meeting without you under these circumstances and that you can (and hopefully will) file a complaint with the Dept of Ed and forward a copy to the school.

I didn't know that! I know the meeting happened because his state case manager told me she just saw everyone leaving just before we came. I received and declined, an Invitation to that IEP, so, know the folks she saw leaving were all the participants invited. And yes, I will add that to the list of what I will report to Due Process. At this point I have two goals with the elementary school. To prevent what happened to Vince and I happening again as well as I can, to at least leave a record with DPI is the only way I can think of. The other goal is like you said, >>>>Just because the elementary school was stupid and didn't provide FAPE does not negate the fact that Vince didn't receive FAPE and that he is still owed services

I have the invitation to the meeting that happened without me, it was about related services and parent concerns about the IEP, neither of which I asked to meet about. I know this might be something school wanted to meet about to cover their arse before the school year ended, and I totally would have gone, had it not been directly before the IEP I asked for, and, with an Invitation 2 days before the meeting.

The new school, gave us the invitation while we were there, that may not be the proper legal way, but that kind of thing I don't much care about as long as the meeting I asked for, for the BIP and the RDI on the IEP happened, with next year's staff, which it did. I'm positive that dir of student services was the reason why, she was supposed to send the invite, then didn't - only sent an invite to and IEP I never agreed to, emailed several times to confirm I could not be there, called 15 minutes before to again state I could not be there, that she held as LRE, anyhow.

I love your verbiage:
not that you're a crazy, need-to-file-a-restraining-order against psycho parent.

hee hee. Dh said that he could 'see' how the new school staff was looking at me, like I was not the kind of mom they were warned about. He also said, that he can finally himself 'see' the aspergers, like he thought I was just choosing to be 'babyish' in certain areas, or stubborn. Cripe. So, 11 years after having an autistic son and 24 years after meeting me, he's finally 'getting' asd. And they say asd's are in their own world? HA! :D

06-02-2007, 04:41 PM
Oh, Mili!! LOL about your DH. What took him so long!!??

But hey, at least he's beginning to understand now, and that's...well, FINALLY!!! YAY!

Honestly, I can't believe the nerve of the school, and man did you go above and beyond to cover your own arse! I do believe that you may have the upper hand at this point, and again, it doesn't matter what the other school didn't do, it's up to the district to make sure he gets what he's supposed to. So, I'm still thinking an email or letter to the school psychologist (For example, I'm confused, can you help me? I'm afraid that the elementary school IEP meeting may have been illegal since I couldn't attend and notified them several times I couldn't attend, and I'm just concerned with how it may affect Vince when he begins school next year....Play the *sympathy* card if you have to. After all, you're just his MOM what could you possibly know anyway? :rolleyes: Stupid schools. But sometimes "playing stupid" while not being "stupid" gives them a way to correct things. BUT, since you're like me, it's just let's get a record on this school to prove they violate the law so the next unsuspecting parent may not have as hard of a time getting services.)

So glad the new school didn't get the parent they expected! HAH! I'm so hoping this is the opportunity you've all been waiting for - to make a fresh start. :D

Take care,


06-02-2007, 10:04 PM
Just out of curiosity, is the little boy who was doing time with Vince (the one who was so successfully learning how to lose) moving to middle school with Vince, or does he have to serve more time first? For some reason, I'm very concerned about him, maybe because my daughter chews on herself like that and I'd be spittin' mad if old Adolf did that to her. I couldn't help but think when you took Vince out that at least the other kid got to come in second in those games with Adolph.

06-02-2007, 10:44 PM
Gwyn, the IEP I did not attend, that happened before the IEP I did attend, was all staff from his elementary school. So, if I contact anyone about it it would be the LRE from that meeting - who is a different person than the one from the new school. The LRE from the 'illegal' IEP is the dir of student services. I wouldn't even want to involve the new school in the old school's ridiculousness, ya know what I mean? But it's a great idea to contact the dir of student services, about the 'illegal' IEP she ran! Especially since compensatory related services were decided on there, and I do not agree with the amount of hours - they should be ALL the hours he missed, so, I could use that for a good reason to contact them. Of course, they could always call it a meeting and not an IEP, who knows. You know them admin folks know how to get out of being accountable.

Peglem, thank God Vincent's 'cell mate' (I love the words you used to ask your question, sad and accurate) will be going to the new school with Vince. I'm sure Adolf will be busy ruining other young lives. But I'm going to keep working on that. And believe me, I don't blame her - she actually thinks she's helping!!! Or, she's got me fooled into believing she is ignorant but not a sadist. She's the perfect victim, skinny, wrinkled, polyester pants hiked up above her ankles, waistband below the boobs. Turtleneck in all weather. Everyone patting her fragilness on the back, "It's ok, you're doing fine, you're a great teacher"....not that anyone seems to notice her bleeding student, who is learning to lose.

How could I have been so blind, how could I have loved and supported this school? Well, actually I know how, most of the teachers rock. And until this year, Vincent had teachers that worked with me, wanted to learn, wanted to understand. Ya know?

I have tried to speak with the little boy's mother btw, and I'm sure she's aware of him self abusing because that's not something that can be hidden. What I'm sure she's not aware of, is WHY. I can just hear Adolf, "we were having fun in social skills, and he must have gotten overwhelmed, poor baby, I felt so bad". I think the mom has got her hands full, she's got 4 boys. I don't want to make it sound like she doesn't care or something, and she has every right to think school knows what they're doing...but yet, I dunno. One reason I'm so glad I'm on the spectrum, is it gave me the ability to aimlessly perseverate on helping my son, until I finally (8 years after the dx) found aim. If I were that little boy's mom, I dunno how much time I could devote to this perseverating - which is a luxury most mom's don't get I'm thinking. So, she might not know better, that her kid is entitled to so much more, so I have to help kids like him from the side, not directly, know what I mean? I've found in all these years, talking in person to other parents at school is not at all effective, doesn't do squat for their kid...with the exception of my friend (the one who's a doctor) who's asd daughter also goes to that school district.

She (my friend) made me so happy today, she's going to go to Vincent's RDI consultant a whole state away....I CAN'T WAIT!!! OMG her daughter (lfa, so called) is going to do SO WELL, I'm just lit!

Mother's Heart
06-02-2007, 10:48 PM
I was hesitating at first because I thought your declining the invitation, if not done properly would allow them to go ahead and meet. They can meet if you decline by just saying I can't come. But if you say "i can't come at that time" then they have to reschedule and go through the notification process. BUuuut...they have to notify you 10 days in advance unless when they notify you they ask, and you agree, to waive the ten-day notice. If you didnt' do that then they can't legally meet without you. What, are they going to lie on the form and say they gave you ten days notice? If you respond that you want to attend but cannot attend it automatically goes into second notification mode. oh.. i think I already said that. The boy wants something so has aholdt of my chin.....can't proofread this...:rolleyes:

06-03-2007, 12:33 AM
I asked for an IEP meeting. I told them what topics I wished to discuss. They said ok, at 1:45 on June 1, and said they would send an invitation.

I got an IEP invitation for June 1 at 1:15, covering topics I did not want to discuss, and none I did, also not with any staff he would have next year but instead staff he didn't have currently and would not have next year either.

I said I'd be glad to meet with them about their topics and with staff that do not now and will not work with him, but could not on that time (1:15). That I thought the IEP was to be about the topics I requested the IEP for. They said we needed to meet about related services, to determine the next 4 1/2 days of his school. I said I wanted the IEP I was told would happen, to determine his entire 6th grade year next year.

Finally, they clarified the IEP I wished to have would be at 1:45, this 1:15 was a whole different meeting.

I told them I never agreed to this 1:15 meeting, still do not because I simply could not make it on only 2 days notice.

They said they notified me long before, and gave me a date of notification of 3/21 (they meant 5/21). I did find and email on 5/21 informing me of 'the' meeting at 1:15, and that it would cover all of my topics. I thought they 'meant' 1:45 and just made a typo and thought nothing of it until...I got an Invitation to an IEP that was at 1:15.

I 'think' their intentions, were to have this 1:15 IEP, get going on none of the topics I wished to discuss, use all the time up and never have the IEP I asked for...the email I received that slipped in the 1:15 time, and never ever said, Hey, we'll have two IEP's was a trick to get me to agree to a meeting I 'thought' was about one thing, then make the meeting about another once I was there. Bait and switch or whatnot. I can't be sure, but why no Invitation for the 1:45 IEP?? Why no mention of 'hey, ok we'll just have 2 meetings'. I think they never intended to have the 1:45, so never created an invitation to it, thinking it would never happen anyhow. And, had I not READ the Invitation, which often I don't, I'd have never realized any of this, I simply would have not shown up. Although, I believe I remember there have to be three attempts to get me to meet for an IEP, before they can meet without me. That sticks out in my mind for some reason.

They totally met without me, I didn't refuse to come, I never agreed to come at 1:15, and they do not state I did (cause I didn't). They scheduled it anyhow, even if it was an innocent mistake, once I said I was not able to come, several times via email in addition to a phone call, they met anyhow.

Anyhow, DPI can decide, I already know they did wrong, did stuff that isn't legal, let's see if there will be any accountability at all, ya know? And that, I can't control. I can only do my best to bring it out into the open by filing with DPI and also I will be sending all this to my senator, and the US Department of Education, cause that was recommended for me to do. (geez, now I feel pooped just thinking about all that)

:D Mili :D

06-03-2007, 09:06 PM

I didn't explain myself well enough. You wouldn't need to contact the Dir. of Student services about the previous IEP meeting, but the new school. If the elementary school chose to do something illegal, you can call them on it at the new school, because it is up to the district, not the school, to provide educational services, and your new LRE or whatnot, is the school psychologist at the new school. So you're wondering if what was discussed at the previous meeting (which would have to be a part of his permanent file and would be accessible by the new school) would affect him at the new school. I would also CC the letter to the superintendent of the distict, to put him/her on notice as well as file the complaints.

I'm hoping this makes a little more sense.


06-10-2007, 08:58 PM
From dir of student serv:

Dear Lisa, You will be getting an updated IEP soon. The IEP will combine both IEP meetings that were held on June 1, 2007 at (middle school). The M-1 form will tell you what was decided at the 1:15 p.m. meeting. Basically, we considered your request for a school day that included SPL and OT services for the remainder of this school year and compensatory services. Vincent's shortened school day with therapies had to be considered by the IEP team. ****** included the decisions that were made in the 1:45 p.m. meeting. Lisa, I would like to ask that you refer your questions in writing to DPI. I spoke with DPI and I have no reason to believe that the District is out-of-compliance. A physician's prescription must be considered by an IEP team.

From me:

We never made a request for a school day that included spl and ot services for the remainder of this school year, when we wanted him to continue spl and ot, (principal) refused, as did you and 'the district'. We did not know he was legally entitled to this. Sought outside consultation (Pogue), were told he was entitled to this so tried then to get him 'back in' for spl and ot. When our outside consultant sent notice, magically he was finally allowed to get what he was entitled to. Had he been permitted to continue related services all along, he would have been back to school full time well before year end, as long as he and the staff were safe...which was a request we asked 'the district' to assure us of repeatedly, and we never were assured.

Also, directly after Vincent's last full day at school, his state case manager *** had asked for the record of how long he spent in the isolation room that week, and (assoc prin) strangely was unable to find any - although she did tell *** those records are kept. His dad and I still want those records for the year. That is not something DPI can provide.

As for your request we contact DPI with our questions, we have been bounced back and forth and back again between five different people (at least) from 'the district'. Makes communication much harder, but we did so. Now you say refer questions to DPI...knowing they arel not able to answer questions regarding Vincent and the ***** school district, it's policies, etc... so we ask ourselves why you'd do that? Is that policy? We take this as your final shove to go to Due Process. We will print and fill out that paperwork this week, we will not seek mediation as we have tried that all year without success.

Vincent is waiting.

Mr. & Mrs.

ALSO....IF IT EVEN MATTERS - I sent the email below to the new school, my LRE there the school psychologist (cc's to other ppl in the email) and got an auto email back, now what?:

Since you will not be available in the summer, can you please send me a summer contact? I'd most prefer ****, his new case manager if that's ok. Especially because I'd like to include her, in my communication with his RDI consultant - what we're doing, the consultant educating me in the areas I'm going wrong, I'm really open to that kind of thing. I believe it might really help **** get a good feel for RDI just reading what Vince and his dad and I do, and the consultant's responses. We consult with her every other week, and send updates more frequently.

**** would that all be ok with you?

Though I know ESY is not mandatory, it has in the past been set up with us so he could actually attend, we arrange dates and times in advance. It would be great to see Vincent get as much as he was supposed to. Do you think the ESY teacher would be willing to do some more days/times in August, could you contact her about this? Or have her contact me? If he can only get the few dates July 17, July 19, August 14 and August 16 from 8:30-10:00, then we'll just do that rather than nothing, but don't think it will help at all with regression - though he it will with getting used to the new school. Well, let us know, but please will you ask the teacher first, it might be ok with her, we want to be sure.

We badly need a summary of our IEP - what will and won't happen, and when. An email is fine, just something to clarify the result of the meeting so we are all on the same page. I am unclear about exactly when the RDI training will happen, confused cause we were informed the training had already happened a couple months ago. It has been the first time we've seen something WORK for Vincent - and us! Were he not so very far behind academically, or were there a reason other than behaviors that impede his learning (like low IQ or an LD) I wouldn't be so concerned. We really need to know **** will be comfortable with using RDI. It might sound like a 'mystery' but is really nothing more that what she does with non-autistic children automatically.

Also - ** and ***, how does the schedule Vince will be home during the summer full time for compensatory spl and ot, work for you both? Please let me know. I'll make sure I work out something within your time frames. Maybe even after camp if need be. Let me know, we'll figure it out.

Thank You,

06-11-2007, 07:22 PM

It is NOT legal to combine two meetings. I would ask in writing for the name of the individual the dir. of student services spoke to so that you can contact that individual personally. I'll bet that they did not consult with anyone, or, if they did, that they are deliberately misinterpreting the law. I would also quote the federal law that I provided you earlier, that parents must be included in ALL IEP meetings, not just whatever ones they feel like letting you take part in. And remember FEDERAL LAW trumps state laws every time. States can add more protections, but they cannot take any away.

Good luck with the Due Process!


06-11-2007, 07:24 PM
Another thing too...if any decisions were made during the first IEP meeting (with the old school) they have to provide you with prior written notice of any changes, and give you the opportunity to either agree or disagree with those changes, in accordance to your right to due process. You agreed with decisions made at the second meeting, you have no idea what was discussed at the first meeting. How could you? You weren't there.

I just want to go to this school district (and my own) and kick 'em where it hurts...literally.


06-12-2007, 03:23 AM
Spoke to the woman at DPI I've been sending copies of all my school emails to. All of a sudden, she's sympathizing with school. After 45 minutes, I was still not able to get any straight answers out of her about IEP's without the parent, she said since they did contact me, the meeting was not necessarily 'illegal' and all she'd do is clickity click her keyboard and quote law, but, not answer me. Though, she'd say over and over "I answered you". So I'd say, "well I didn't understand...did you say 'this' or did you say 'that'" and she kept trying to change the subject. It was so weird.

So then, I finally said "I get it, you're like 'I sure wish this woman would quit bothering me' and if that's what you're thinking, that's fine but say so" so then she didn't say yes and she didn't say no, she said she thinks so and so can answer my questions better than her, so, I ask what kind of DPI type questions she answers, what is her title - NO ANSWER. The best I got was (and she claimed this was an answer) she answers everything in general (last time she was some Due Process specialist type or so she said, I mean she took all my info, said she was the person I was to speak to...her thingy on DPI site says Div/Team:LSEA/SE so what ever that is, she is).

SO GET THIS....I say, "By any chance are you FRIENDS with (and I named the dir of student services who is orchestrating all this)" and she said "Well I've never seen her", so I asked again, she said "I don't know what she looks like", so I said "I understand you do not know what her physical appearance is, what I'm asking is if you 'know' her be it via emails or phone calls - let me ask this, did you speak to her about all this?" and she again got quiet, changed the subject, then said "YES" so then I said, "well that explains it, no wonder you sound so different, so tell me now, who can I talk to now, that will ACTUALLY BE ON VINCENT'S SIDE, not my side, not school's, VINCENT'S. And she had no answer other than telling me so and so can answer all my questions about Due Process, if I choose to do that, but she advises a complaint - but - doesn't advise it per say cause she doesn't give out advice.

Also, she asked me if I was recording her right off the bat...what's up with that? So what if I was...I mean I wasn't but real nice that you got your head pumped up with what ever the dir of student services said. Right after she told me she knows the woman I complained about all that time, I said "Did she tell you she arranged for me to be arrested? Made sure the used my son as a tool to get me upset - not that I even so much as swore, but I went to jail...oh and did your 'friend' tell you she threatened me, that if I went to you guys 'a little information about law can be DANGEROUS to me'". She said, "oh, I really doubt she said that" so I asked if she wanted to hear it, it was at an IEP so is recorded.

I mean WTF, hello? Anyone out there on my kid's side??? HELLOOOOOO?

And I don't mean 'here' of course, I mean in the educational world.

Well, since there is not time limit for me to file Due Process, or so I was sort of told??? I'll do so when I get back, I'll file Due Process and a complaint and was 'sort of told' I HAVE TO try mediation first by this woman. I'd like to, just for the heck of it, send all I come up with on a list of what school has done, to www.wrightslaw.com , I mean to the lawyers on there. I know it's a pipe dream, but when in God's name is anyone that can do something about this for Vince, ever going to DO IT already. Suing is the only way anyone even listens, crap I'd open up an RDI school so fast if I ever got any loot. All ages, I'd pick up the financial slack for anyone that needed it - I'm so mad about this little circle of the 'in' crowd or whatnot.

So, if attempting to get sympathy will do any good...I want you all to know I'm attempting it in order for someone to go through my zillion and one page thread, create a time line of crap for me to file and bring media attention to (oh yeah, I'm there) by the time I get back from our first vacation in 12 years (added the '12' for additional sympathy - I mean it's true too).

Well, either that or create some hysterical wild excuse why you'd loooove to do all that, but can't. You know I love to laugh...who don't!

06-12-2007, 12:33 PM
you know moldy, if they can do mediation and resolve the issue it is the way to go. Due process is not neccessarily going to win you your case, and it can be very costly.
thou must remember that in law it does not matter who is right or wrong.
remember I told you a long time ago about a friend of mine who went to due process, her son was totally being screwed over. The hearing officer had to deliver a decision in so many days (30, 90 who remembers?) and well... two years after the fact he still hadn't. the kid finished school while the parents, who shelled out thousands still wait a verdict.
it was totally illegal and I have heard it happen several times since. Her lawyer just would not do a dam thing about it.
have you talked to anyone about cross districting Vince? getting him (and carmen) a fresh start?

06-13-2007, 12:15 AM
I disagree. If the district were willing to play fair, I'd be all for it. But we all know this district is not. Mediation serves no purpose but for the district to find out what you intend to say at Due Process. Mediation IS NOT mandatory, it is optional, but I'll double check just in case that is a state-by-state basis. Yep, here is what it says: An alternative dispute resolution option is mediation. NOT Mandatory, and if that's what you were told, I'd file a formal complaint against the person who told you this with DPI (doubt it will do any good, but maybe it'll get a record started on this person.)

I'm also not surprised that you got that reaction from DPI as I've gotten similar responses from the PA Dept of Ed, and OCR, that's WHEN they actually respond to me. You have the advantage that your IEP meetings were taped so you have documentable proof of what happened. Ths can be submitted during due process, but you may have to pay to have it transcribed if the district didn't also tape these meetings. You'll have to check.

Here is PA we had parents of special needs kids sue the Dept of Ed for 10 YEARS because DPE wasn't doing its job making sure schools were actually following the law. DPE finally settled, which resulted in something called the Gaskin Settlement Agreement, which means kids aren't supposed to be moved out of the gen. ed setting, despite severity of disability, unlesss all the necessary supports that were in place to help that kid be successful have failed. That's what inclusion is supposed to be. (Yes, I know that sometimes the gen ed setting isn't always the LRE; the settlement accounts for that). My district violated the terms of the agreement; many other districts have violated/are violating the terms of that agreement, and DPE is STILL NOT doing what it's supposed to do. SO, some of the parents that brought the suit, and some others (hopefully me) are preparing to take DPE BACK to court, for violating the settlement.

Problem is, this sort of thing is happening EVERYWHERE, and unless we make tons of noise about it, nothing will change. I'm on several message boards/list serves that are trying to figure out what to do, but unless we all rally together, and find someone with some money to back us (because lobbyists want $$$, as with our whole corrupt system of gov't - sorry for the rant, this whole thing has me p.o.'d.) nothing will change.

I've emailed the Wrights' for help and received an email in return that they don't help individuals on a case-by-case basis. Maybe if you submitted a question they would answer, but I doubt it. BUT there is a ton of stuff on there that's helpful.

Also if you need help with Due Process stuff and it's not something someone here can help you with, I can give you links to the list serves I belong to, or you could do a yahoo search in their yahoo groups.

And yes, Milli, you do have 2 years to file. So you have plenty of time.

Hang in there!


06-13-2007, 12:55 AM
Keg, I don't want to move my kids elsewhere....despite all the problems with Admin, 95% of the teaching staff rocks. Big time. His Speech lady for instance is fantastic, totally gets him, gets me, I'd love to see her certified in RDI cause she'd get it. His OT staff, WONDERFUL. His past case managers were willing to communicate, though didn't know what to do about his behaviors. At that time, I didn't either. But did talk to me lots and we had REAL discussions, not all the legal mumbo jumbo. I was moved around so much, I was lucky to go to the same school the entire year - however - in my case, that was great, cause I never got solidified as the scape goat, I was able to 'escape' and make a 'fresh start' every so many months. I did not gain friends though, but wouldn't have no matter what anyhow. Carmen and Vincent are all together different. Same home same school all their lives, with the same kids and same staff - Vince will be a block from his old school, able to see it, visit it if they feel he should for say recess with the younger kids (who think he's amazing cause of his height/athletic abilities). Carmen is in her last year there, they do very well by her academically. I totally get the 'move' and fresh start idea, but in this case, I'm staying. I moved here from a rotten school district - this one is still above that one believe it or not. This year however, with this particular case manager, was he!!.

Gywn, wow see I was totally caught off guard, I thought 'reporting' school would make DPI gasp and say "Oh no! Oh really?" and so on. OCR did give me their decision by the way, OMG, you should see school's version of the story - unreal. Needless to say, OCR after all was said and done, did NOT find the school was retaliating against me. I read the first page just long enough to get the verdict, then had to stop myself. I know all the crap they said would have just upset me. It was like a dozen pages long at least. I will look at it though after vacation.

I'm real real glad I have until 2 years to file. I have lots lots lots to file, and to organize. I have ALL the emails from the hug stuff, to the no recess for a year that I didn't know about, to the most recent things. I'll basically go over this thread, find the time line of stuff, print the emails. I will not go down without a fight. I already know alone, I probably won't succeed, but I can't seem to let it go or let it pass, not for Vincent, not for all the other kids that will go through that school. And when I do write everything up, I do want to go to the media, and do want to hand out what I write to all the parents that would be effected, or whose children might be effected in the future. Ya know?

I heard some quote someone made by Ghandi (major hero to me). It was something like....first they laugh, then they deny, then they fight, then you win. Sure wish I'd have had that little flow chart to start with. See, when I know it's a 'game' I don't get upset, but to be honest pretty much any time I have talked to or about school, I feel like I've taken a CRAZY pill first, cause I feel crazy!!! Everything makes so little sense. Can ya feel me sista? :cool:

06-13-2007, 01:26 AM
Can ya feel me sista?:cool:

Absolutely! :D That, and I'm just so heartsick. I belong to a restraint list serve and the situations kids have been put through...all over the U.S...and to have all of these parents brushed off or have to go to Due Process for relief...it just hurts. The fact that the Dept of Ed, OCR, P&A exist supposedly to protect kids from abuses...and they turn their backs on them, repeatedly, all over the country...

In criminal court, you break a law, you're fined, put in jail, serve community service, or all of the above. But public schools can physically, mentally, emotionally abuse our kids, and the regulatory agencies the government set up to protect our kids repeatedly fails them.

And I feel angry, and helpless and powerless to change things. And I hate that. I hate what you and Vince have been through. I hate that someone I know's son 6 yr old son with asthma and autism was restrained 30 times in a prone position, with knees pushed into his back so he couldn't breathe, and the school tried to say it didn't happen, and only settled a Due Process case because her TSS witnessed, reported, and testified to what she saw (that TSS was then summarily transferred to other children by her agencyfor violating "the code" between districts and schools, but at least she had the guts to stand up and do the right thing.) I hate that another boy with autism was shot twice by police officers because he wouldn't (or maybe couldn't) put down a pair of scissors. I hate that I have to belong to a restraint list serve/message board because my child was physically restrained, and I still don't know who was involved or what happened. That the district has not responded to requests for information, and never scheduled an IEP meeting before the end of the school year (that I requested) to address when and where my child will go to school, and because she hasn't been in school for safety reasons, the district is threatening truancy. I say, let 'em! I'd love for a judge to hear what happened to her. Maybe if it's outside the district's scope (ie Due Process hearing), then maybe finally some justice will be served.


06-13-2007, 12:20 PM
Aw man Gwyn. That's a lot of kids stories you told...but I'm sure only a fraction of what you know, and only a fraction of what exists.

As bad as Vince has it, the kid I feel for is his 'cell mate' who self injures, chews his arm bloody, because of that ridiculous 'social skills' time. The idea is, make the kids act nt, and it helps them magically be nt in time. So, as the child learns to lose at games (per Adolf) he ends up chewing his arm till it bleeds. Not that he has ever gotten any kind of school counseling for that, nor has Vince who still talks about it all the time. The kids in 'those' classes together, have to experience themselves and their friends in conditions that parents of norrrrrrmal kids would be able to sue for and easily win. Or maybe not - I'm getting it that schools really seem to have this shield from justice. If a 13 year old babysitter did to Vince and his friends at school, what Adolf does, she'd be in some juvenile detention place. And one of the biggest shames of this is, I really believe the majority of teachers are as stuck in this administrative bureaucratic mess and my kid - I too know I can't change a darn thing myself, but with some pro bono lawyer threatening to make them pay money, that might do it. Again, a pipe dream.

It's really crazy though. Like my child endured an elementary school version of The Cuckoo's Nest with admin as the Third Reich.

I'm really lucky you posted all you did to me here, cause I somehow feel like maybe I'm not so 'crazy' when I see other parents are saying the same as I am. There have been times I really questioned if I was being unfair to school, I'd even lose sight of what it was I was asking for cause there are so many darn things...I keep forgetting the letters FAPE are pretty much all I'm asking.

07-25-2007, 06:40 PM
Went to Civil Court today, since the D.A.'s office dropped the disorderly conduct charge against me a few months back. So, now the City is pressing Civil charges against me. They offered to cut the fine in half, to $150 instead of $300 if I admit the charges. They described 'Disorderly Conduct' and though I was loud, yes, you have to look at the context, the channel of dead ends I went through all year, all the school did...people are much louder than me at bars, on New Years Eve, sporting events...one has to consider the entire story. All things considered, given the cop held a grudge from the complaint I filed on him 2 years ago, considering I was banned from seeing my children at school since October, considering I didn't so much as swear, my conduct was very very reasonable! Loud, but not disorderly. I cannot say the same for the school staff towards my child and other children with special needs, I cannot say the same for most of the cops.

So, I opted to decline their offer to sell myself out, and sell out all the kids with autism, and will instead get to tell my story, their story, on our local tv station when I go to court in four months. I know there's no way I'll win, but at least I can finally give a voice to the kids - like I said, my goal is to be the Rosa Parks of autism. However, without a 'MLK' to lead me, I'll just wind up not making any progress for our kids but at least their story in this school and with this staff will be told.

07-25-2007, 06:52 PM
You go, girl! Are you sure it'll be on local TV? Can you find a way to get this in the media before then? I believe that most people would think that it is ridiculous for the city to persue any charges against you. Do you get a jury, or will it be just before a judge?

07-25-2007, 07:00 PM
Maybe a well written press release to a few newspapers and stations would get word around?
I find its often not who is right, but who speaks first comes out on top.

07-25-2007, 07:14 PM
It's a real small town, the tv station is local only, I doubt it's even in any towns bordering it. I WANT to explain why I was loud, I want to go on tv and explain it. It's weird, I think because you feel so UNheard as a parent, loving your child in a school system that does not love or even understand him. Then I think of all the other kids in his spot and worse. It's like some moral thing. I think if it were not about 'autism' and 'autistic children' in my head and heart, I'd have taken the deal in a heartbeat just to make the mess go away once and for all.

Also, this forces me forward with Due Process, that alone will explain a lot of why I was loud.

If however they drop this, and they might...I WILL then go to the media. If I don't for some reason, I'll always feel sorry I didn't at least TRY. I might not be the type of person to create the changes I want to see, I know could happen for all kids with autism in the school system, but I can't live with saying I failed cause I didn't try. I can totally live with myself if I say I tried, didn't know how to be a powerful positive person of change, but did what I could from the bottom of my heart.

I'm extremely extremely blessed and fortunate today, to have the energy for this difficult climb that a mother can only have when HOPE has been restored to her heart for her child. And I know I'm like a parrot here saying it again, but it's all due to the RDI program and the wonderful consultant, the most upright and true blue pioneer of autism guiding me to know how to guide my son to his bright future. I sure could not have said that, even 2 years ago. Vince is going to be just fine. And every other kid on the spectrum deserves that too, and every other parent on the spectrum deserves that HOPE. And although idealistic, also REALISTIC.

I'm trying not to run on here, but obviously quality of life and autism being synonymous is my passion. It's worse than the dark ages, there's no reason every teacher should not clearly understand autism, as well as every parent with a child with autism - because there's no reason the experts should not be able to guide and teach us. The ignorance is inexcusable. I say that, because it is only very recent that I had the understanding I do now about autism. Which came from FINALLY an expert who actually was an expert...although she never claimed to be, as true experts seem not to (I'm speaking of our RDI consultant). How our kids are treated in schools, how that effects them through out life, the lack of an appropriate education - that would include gaining the developmental skills nt kids have. The lack of NOT LOCKING THEM UP IN CLOSETS with fancy names, all in the name of WHAT?

No parent should be in the dark about exactly what they are seeing when they see their asd child's behavior. No parent should be expected to be born with the knowledge of what it all means, don't get me wrong - but if your child is diabetic, you are educated about what to do, right? But there is some bizarre thing in society or in the media, maybe it has to do with Bush, I have no idea....autism is still such a mystery, and it should not be, especially to those spending all week with our kids at school, claiming to 'understand' autism then treating our kids like badly behaved circus animals.

Again, I'm just passionate about this. It's like Jim Crow for autism, it's beyond what I can stand.

07-25-2007, 09:54 PM


I'm reading a book now, "Unstrange Minds: Remapping the World of AUTISM" by Roy Richard Grinker. He's an anthropologist. His daughter, Isabelle, was diagnosed with Autism in 1994.

The book is interesting and enlightening, not only because it talks about his and his wife's relationship with his daughter; but, because he's traveled around the world and talked with parents of children who're on the Spectrum. The treatment of a child in another part of the world is so different from the United States.

The one thing that he said that struck me so far was in the chapter called 'Getting in Tune'. It's the first paragraph after the chapter entitled 'Becoming Visible':

In nearly all the stories I've told in this book, it is a mother's eyes that are the first to truly see her child and accept her child's difference. But simply to see a child with autism is not the same thing as integrating him into a social world. Those doors have to be worked open. Visibility is also more than just legislation ensuring a child's rights to an education. The Korean child with autism from Suwon who was given a place in a classroom, but treated only as an object of disgust, was neither seen nor understood. Parents all over the world work hard to make sure that their children are not shunned by society, especially when they feel so alone in being confident of their potential. The world's blindness is understandable. In order to make something visible you first have to notice its invisibility.

Lisa, I'm not surprised that there's a change in Vincent. I SEE and HEAR the change in *YOU* -- more accepting of both Vincent and yourself.

I'm so glad that Vincent's got you to advocate for him. I see how hard you've worked.

You and Vincent aren't invisible anymore and I'm sure that you'll continue to make sure that you both never are invisible again.


Barb http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/holding-hands.gif

07-26-2007, 01:14 AM
Hey Moose!

That sounds like an eye opening book, sounds really good - but very hard to read too cause you can't help but imagine "what if that was my child".

That word invisible, it's a really good point, very good word to use. I never really thought of that, since what Vince does is sooooooo visible (or do I mean noisy, especially in public, hee hee). I only thought 'invisible' about the world asd's can't see, body language and all that type of thing, and all the communication and understanding that comes with it.

I do feel I've changed, I feel more empowered I think the word would be - maybe I feel more 'evolved'. But not in a snooty way, like how people with really good manners that know which fork to use of the selection of 4 forks in front of them and a fancy restaurant...that would be a 'skill'. I feel 'evolved' cause there's a decent chance I'd notice if the person I was eating with was caring or judging that I didn't know which for to use. Know what I mean? And if it was a good friend I was eating with, I could even 'reference' them by looking at their face, as I touched each fork to gauge weather I was about to pick up the correct one or not.

Of course, I'd be so overwhelmed with all that at this point, I'd just cut to the chase and use a spoon, hee hee, but I'm getting there.

Like a small child, developing your milestones isn't something you can consciously do, it's not mechanical - neither is NOT developing them (unless your over 50 and still a bachelor, hee hee). I feel almost like old habits die hard and I'm being a bit too mechanical in trying to understand all this 'nt' stuff...but Vince can't go farther (at this point) than I can take him. Someday he'll be on autopilot, but for now I have to guide him so I feel rushed to understand that which I can't even describe cause I haven't experienced it yet, such as automatically reading body language.

Anyhow, it sure would be great, and I look forward to the day, when Vince is guiding me because he has surpassed me. Carmen does, has for a few years without her knowing it.

Sorry bout the ramble, I'm glad to hear from you, I just got off the phone with the RDI consultant so my head is spinning with new thoughts and hopes for Vince that I know he will achieve. And of course now knowing this will go to court, to the media (local), I see both the vision of me bringing the beginning of positive change for all children, and, the vision of every parent hating my guts cause somehow things got all turned around and now I look like the bad guy. Tis a lot of thoughts even for my big italian noggin :D but I'm good! Got positive feedback from our consultant about Vincent, what more could I want (except a powerful attorney in the family willing to take my case for free for as long as it takes, and to have a smaller butt ;) ).

07-26-2007, 04:25 PM
Have you ever thought of contacting the naacp or aclu about these matters?
I believe that would be one way of getting their attention if that is what you are aiming for. I don't blame you I wouldn't plead guilty or no contest even if the fine was only a nickel. You should not have to be fined anything for just being loud and asking questions about your son's education.
Take care

07-26-2007, 04:34 PM
I contacted the state and national ACLU. They couldn't help us and my kid was illegally restrained in school. They could have killed her. No one cares. But maybe Milli would have better luck if she tried her state office?

Good luck Milli. Good for you standing your ground, even if you do eventually lose (which I hope you don't). Let me know if there's anything I can do to help.


07-26-2007, 05:01 PM
So, Mili, could you record it from the local news, and if you are satisfied that you made your case, publish it online to reach a wider audience? I have no info about copyright laws or anything- just thinking your story needs a lot of exposure to bring pressure for change. And even if you "lose" the court case, it seems obvious that both you and your son have suffered outrageous injustices at the hands of the school district, the police, and the courts, not to mention OCR.

07-26-2007, 05:12 PM
If it brings about more exposure to our kids in schools, I'd be happy to lose!

Know what I mean?

I'm looking to do a different kind of 'win', one that might light a spark under folks that can do something about our kids not being mistreated (mistreated being a mild word).

I have to pick up Carmen in a couple minutes...I thought you'd all enjoy knowing that I called, and will call back, the attorney that won in Supreme Court for Larry Flynt the ***** guy that no one 'liked', that was not 'popular', but using what the law and amendments say, he won. I found his name and number and address and law firm online. I know 99% change he thinks I'm nuts and/or won't help. Again, I can live with myself if I try and fail. Just not if I don't even try.

07-26-2007, 05:16 PM
I'm going to get much more aggressive about contacting every place I can think of, once I write up all the Due Process stuff, so I have a way to just copy and send all the info. Though, like Gywn, all the places that should have helped, did not. Including Wisconsin Disability Rights.

I contacted the state and national ACLU. They couldn't help us and my kid was illegally restrained in school. They could have killed her. No one cares. But maybe Milli would have better luck if she tried her state office?

Good luck Milli. Good for you standing your ground, even if you do eventually lose (which I hope you don't). Let me know if there's anything I can do to help.


OH I will stand my ground, in large large part because of all the support here, and all the stories about what your kids have suffered at school. There will be change, I hope I'll be a part of it, but there will be change - there are too many kids with autism in the world now for it not to.

08-20-2007, 01:03 AM
Ok, I want to keep this 'log' all on one thread, so, am posting it here :)

I feel upset, well that's not the word, but kind of.

I saw one of the staff from Vincent's old school (he'll be in sixth now, so will go to a new middle school, but same district, same admin, etc...) She was once my 'friend' or 'ally' all happy go lucky, "So are you looking forward to school starting Lisa" and I'm like, "Well, I"m looking forward to my last trial date when school arrested me last school year" and she's like, "Ohhh now, leave all that behind, it's a new year, a new school" and I was just stunned - like must be nice to have your la dee dah life like nothing every happened. I really see it's such a game, waiting game, game of breaking parents down sticking together - well seeing her reminded me to make sure I bought a highlighter for the huuuuge thread here (this one I'm posting on now) that describes the whole school so I can narrow down what to put, and not put, for Due Process.

Sorry, still like pissed or stressed from that pleasant encounter. And no, I didn't really say that comment about looking forward to my last trial date from school having me arrested last year, I totally had the words and would have, I couldn't tell you why they don't come out. Maybe I need to see the words like on my monitor then just read them. I dunno. Anyhow, alls I really said was "No way." Then she said the thing about leaving last year behind, I said it was hard to because they still don't know anything about RDI, so I didn't see how anything would be any different for Vincent. And she said I could invite them over to show them how I do it at home - I said why would I have to do that? RDI is something that is done everywhere at all times (she went to the 2 day conference with me, and didn't get it at all) and she said, "Oh yeah, that's right."

I still have 2 weeks of sanity - before school starts. I can remember when I felt school was my life raft, HIS life raft and couldn't wait for it to begin. And it was great feeling he had at least that life raft, since I couldn't figure out how to give him more. Even when I noticed the holes, I thought HE was making them and tried to make HIM fix them, you know, make him behave better, consequences at school and home for bad behavior, etc... Then I pointed out, all the ways in which staff was making the holes, and tried to make them take the patches his RDI consultant and I tried to give them to put on. Wow, who knew they felt more comfortable the holey dingy they knew, than on solid ground in foreign RDI-land where HE, myself and the consultant speak the language, and they had to learn it. So would rather stay on the holey raft, and keep him there. Does that make sense? It's awful hard to describe what I feel, when I see Adolf and Vince on a holey raft, his consultant and I take the sea weed rope we made and try to pull them into shore, while administration use their thick braided ropes attached to the raft to yank them back out to sea from on top of the Titanic as it sinks - and have it come out making sense. I'm saying just cause their ropes are thicker, don't mean they're pulling in the right direction.

08-20-2007, 01:39 AM
Just don't see how she could be all friendly like that and make pretend nothing happened and everything is fine now. Wish that trial comment had popped into your head! Well, you're done with HER, at least.

08-20-2007, 02:24 AM

I still have 2 weeks of sanity - before school starts. I can remember when I felt school was my life raft, HIS life raft and couldn't wait for it to begin. And it was great feeling he had at least that life raft, since I couldn't figure out how to give him more. Even when I noticed the holes, I thought HE was making them and tried to make HIM fix them, you know, make him behave better, consequences at school and home for bad behavior, etc... Then I pointed out, all the ways in which staff was making the holes, and tried to make them take the patches his RDI consultant and I tried to give them to put on. Wow, who knew they felt more comfortable the holey dingy they knew, than on solid ground in foreign RDI-land where HE, myself and the consultant speak the language, and they had to learn it. So would rather stay on the holey raft, and keep him there. Does that make sense? It's awful hard to describe what I feel, when I see Adolf and Vince on a holey raft, his consultant and I take the sea weed rope we made and try to pull them into shore, while administration use their thick braided ropes attached to the raft to yank them back out to sea from on top of the Titanic as it sinks - and have it come out making sense. I'm saying just cause their ropes are thicker, don't mean they're pulling in the right direction.

I understand EXACTLY what you mean.

It just goes to show you that you oughta be down on your knees thanking God that she's not involved in your child's life any more. How much more damage could she and others like her have done if they only had more time :mad: That whole attitude of blowing last years off as though it were nothing shows you that she doesn't get it and she'll never will get it.

Lisa, all I see is your words on a computer screen. And I've seen the difference in you. More accepting of both yourself and Vince. More confident. I could go on for pages. It shows :D It's just gotta be that someone that "speaks the same language" as Vincent is going to be able to help him. You've got your own life experience. Plus, you're putting in this huge effort to learn something that you just know will help him.

Even if the only message that he ever gets from you is "you're OK the way you are" because you've finally learned to accept yourself and value yourself, then he's gonna come out on top a winner. Yet with all the skills that you and everyone else that will be working with him are learning, it's gonna be better than ON TOP :cool:

I always figure that there's a key to every kid that's having trouble. You just need to invest the time to learn how to reach them. That's what you're doing -- INVESTING -- **BIG TIME**.

Don't let the jackasses from the school system get you down. Stay on your message. What you're doing is absolutely right for Vincent. It shows!!


Barb http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/JC_Hi5.gif

08-20-2007, 03:50 AM
Just don't see how she could be all friendly like that and make pretend nothing happened and everything is fine now. Wish that trial comment had popped into your head! Well, you're done with HER, at least.

Carmen still goes to Vincent's 'old' school...fine with me, I mean I can't do anything about seeing them there. I have no problem with Carmen's teaching staff...though on a 'personal' level I'm not fond of her spec ed teach...so what cause Carmen is making progress with her, plus Carmen likes her, good enough for me! She doesn't have to be my gal pal, just teach my daughter - she does that so has my kudos and support and respect. Not going to invite her shopping though, lol.

As for Vincent's 'old' staff, most especially those that claim to be sooooo scared of me they had to file a restraining order last year and put me in jail, what can I say? They better not say nothing to me - though one already did while literally skipping in a Walgreens, "Hellooooo Mrs. 'Mili'". I'll probably feel very freaked, and ask them if they'd like me to tell all the parents listening what they did to my child, to me, about restraining orders and jail. Bullies hate exposure, that's my only self defense I can do. Really, there's no need for them to speak to me, so no reason they should, and unless they'd like me to recall the year in front of other parents will leave me be. I'll make sure I'm never alone (without my pocket recorder I got this summer) at school or in the parking lot too.

08-20-2007, 04:03 AM
Carmen still goes to Vincent's 'old' school...fine with me, I mean I can't do anything about seeing them there. I have no problem with Carmen's teaching staff...though on a 'personal' level I'm not fond of her spec ed teach...so what cause Carmen is making progress with her, plus Carmen likes her, good enough for me! She doesn't have to be my gal pal, just teach my daughter - she does that so has my kudos and support and respect. Not going to invite her shopping though, lol.

OOOOSCH. Forgot about that. You're pretty tough, Mili. I'd sure be trying to avoid seeing them, at all. But then I was always one to shy away from the bullies...

08-20-2007, 04:20 AM
Don't let the jackasses from the school system get you down.

Hee hee, somehow I 'get' you without any nt decoding, hee hee, that was good.

I'd love to take credit for all you said - so I will! But trust me all the worst effort is behind me, Vince too. Because any effort we put forth now creates progress and fun and connecting emotionally. I have someone I can call and say, "This is what Vince is doing, how Vince is acting, what do you think, what do you suggest" and I get a breakdown of it all so I totally understand it, give a little smack to my head and go 'why didn't I think of that', and proceed in a direction that still thrills me, FORWARD. I get guidance that is accurate, that's a first for sure. No guessing or trial and error rerererexplaining stuff they should already know. In terms of 'getting' my son (and myself) there is no more effort - and effort was ALL it was in years past, no joy, no fun...I mean not really cause I was always so worried, depressed, frustrated, 24/7 'what will he do when I'm gone' thoughts. And Vince seemed to just flounder from one failure to the next (cause he tended to only latch on to the negatives in his memory, and he remembered only failing and negatives over all).

So you'd think that'd be enough, that all this miraculous hope and progress is happening, nope. Never enough till all the kids I see have what Vince finally has. Then that won't be enough, till all the kids I can't see have what Vince has. How can I feel good, or right, all the way at peace inside when I feel like I live in a land where so so so many are dying of thirst (for answers for their children) and here I am with water to share...well I just have to get it to others, ya know? Not cause I'm good or something, but knowing how it feels to be in those dark hours, it's just natural, ya know? At least for everyone here it sure is, how we always share everything we think will help.

Anyhow, I will try and organize the moms in Vincent's old and new school, dunno how yet, can't even organize my house (ok, or my head). But hey, I figure, if just a few mom's would get it, that their kids are entitled to more than guesswork, that there are real actual ANSWERS for our kids on the spectrum in school, they would no way never ever accept anything else. Accepting that is hard to do depending on how severely hope has been beat down, hard to do when hopelessness becomes the norm. It's just it's still really really new that autism is not a mystery - if it were, than every question I have, couldn't be answered by our consultant. Etiology, that's still not so clear, there are probably many from mercury to better diagnosis.

Well, darn that was sure well put, I always get a kick out of your verbiage :D

08-20-2007, 04:27 AM
OOOOSCH. Forgot about that. You're pretty tough, Mili. I'd sure be trying to avoid seeing them, at all. But then I was always one to shy away from the bullies...

Overall I might be tough, especially when I don't have all that pesky body language to read, I mean if they give me the finger I'll 'get' it, but even then, I'd probably assume they were pointing at something and think "wow, they don't even know that looks like they're flipping the bird" then go tell them that, and advise them to use their index finger so no one misunderstands.

I'm such a nerd. But at least I'm a tough nerd, hee hee.

Actually, I plan to volunteer at the school this year, call me crazy (you're crazy Mili!) but I want to watch out for the spec needs kids there as well as I can, it's the only way I can think to do it. Also, I would hope that would help me to give helpful ideas to parents, it's not enough to say what school is doing isn't right, I need a intelligent and brief suggestion. Not sure which adverb will be harder for me!!! Wait, is suggestion a noun (thing), then I mean adjective.

Ok, both will be hard for me :rolleyes:

08-20-2007, 08:34 AM
when are you going to sleep? :eek: :confused: ;) :D

08-20-2007, 10:53 AM
Oh man I'm tired, went to bed just before 7:30am, I have no idea what my problem was. I went here, then found a site where you can do Rubic's cube online with an animated cube, the kids were asleep...well...who the heck could sleep with that kind of excitement going on!

So, playing animated Rubic's cube and posting, instead of going to bed, would demonstrate one of the 5 core deficits of autism, poor Ongoing Appraisal which lead to poor self monitoring and impulse control. Do you have to be on the spectrum to show lack of Ongoing Appraisal, no, not at all. Part of the beauty of RDI, it was developed from looking at neurotypical development, looking at where it starts then stops for people on the spectrum. Do you have autism if you show lack of Ongoing Appraisal, no, not at all...but if you show lack of Ongoing Appraisal plus the other 4 core deficits to an extent that it impairs your life, yes, then you do.

08-20-2007, 11:34 AM


I'm about as bad as you are in terms of getting to bed http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_13_18.gif


Barb http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/girl_haha.gif

08-20-2007, 01:56 PM
Oh man I'm tired, went to bed just before 7:30am, I have no idea what my problem was. I went here, then found a site where you can do Rubic's cube online with an animated cube, the kids were asleep...well...who the heck could sleep with that kind of excitement going on!

So, playing animated Rubic's cube and posting, instead of going to bed, would demonstrate one of the 5 core deficits of autism, poor Ongoing Appraisal which lead to poor self monitoring and impulse control. Do you have to be on the spectrum to show lack of Ongoing Appraisal, no, not at all. Part of the beauty of RDI, it was developed from looking at neurotypical development, looking at where it starts then stops for people on the spectrum. Do you have autism if you show lack of Ongoing Appraisal, no, not at all...but if you show lack of Ongoing Appraisal plus the other 4 core deficits to an extent that it impairs your life, yes, then you do.

ha ha translating feeling guilty of feeling tired because you had some all out night fun...
cheerios !!!! everybody have had some crazy nights sometimes, smile :D
at all events how did you do with the cube ??? my son got a Wii set for me to do some exercise...my fitness was of a 80 year old woman hmmf

08-20-2007, 08:58 PM
Moose, usually bedtime is easy (Ambien) now, I used to be really really bad. I just got done with a darn nice nap...rented a movie when I was grocery shopping to keep them busy, ahhhhh. Feel sooooo much better now. Ready for bed soon, hee hee.

Isabelle, I did crappy with the animated cube, found it too hard to navigate online versus having one in your hand - which I did have one when they came out back when. I just watched a really great movie, The Pursuit of Happyness was the title, based on a true story, loved it, had a rubic's cube in it so I got the urge. That movie was really wonderful, I'm at a spot in my life where I was just ripe for a movie like that. The guy worked his tail off, and finally made a life for his boy and himself - albeit without RDI cause his kid was nt, hee hee. Yeah, I had to slip an RDI in there. I made dh watch it. I knew he'd relate, he too was homeless with his child - omg I can't imagine. When I was homeless, it was just me, and that stinks but it's not the same. I can't imagine going it with my children, omg. He was balling during the movie, I knew he would...he's still 'there' in all the struggles and hard time. I told him I wanted him to watch the movie, so he'll get something like I do...we're HERE, we're at happiness, and I'm engulfed in enjoying it, savoring it in a way I never could have without the prior struggle. I want him to take a moment to realize, all he ever wanted he now has! I 'get' PTS, I have it and to date am on medication or I just live 'back then', even hallucinate people/voices from my past, it's really bad when I don't take meds but totally fine now and for the last 5 or so years. Well, dh would never take meds, movies are all I knew to 'connect' myself with the world, have learned or reflected in the most monumental ways, with movies (no social pressure sitting on a couch, hee hee). Well, for the past few days he just seems happy and playful, I hope watching it helped him to let go of a few ghosts, we'll see. But he's been darn chipper so that's good!

To date, one of the movies that most changed me literally after watching it maybe 15+ years ago and kept me changed to date, I think it's called What Dreams May Come, with Robin Williams. In the movie, the woman feels so guilty, she puts herself in hell. Being a major aspie perfectionist and constantly hearing I was so hard on myself, that movie scared me something awful thinking literally I'd go to hell because I can't ever forgive myself for my continual daily screw ups. Anyhow, wow, that movie, amazing. After watching it, I learned to forgive myself, for the myriad of infractions I'd do all the time (you know, the uptight rigid aspie rule of measure).

Also, since I'm on the subject of movies, I saw Fracture - great movie. I was mentally engaged the whole time, not boring, very very good. Since there were none in the store when I returned mine, I'm thinking lots of people did. It's been raining finally, a lot, so it's movie time around here when we can't go out. Rain or not, we're outta here tomorrow, too boring.

08-20-2007, 10:01 PM

I remember the rubic's cube :D That thing used to frustrate the heck out of me -- I could never get it to work. My son used to be able to do it -- snap-snap. He has a real good spatial sense. He 'killed' the rubic's cube -- he took it apart with a screwdriver to see how it works and never bothered putting it together again :rolleyes:

Oh, about the movies. That's why I like reading so much. It's almost like someone else has THE WORDS that you need to express something in your head. I used to write to authors all the time -- did you mean this, did you mean that??

It's interesting that your hubby seemed to get so much out of the movie this time. There's a saying that when the student in ready, the teacher will show up ;) YOU'RE the teacher :cool:

My son and I believe that we're guided by The Universe to where we need to go next. Sometimes we need to go as 'teacher' because we can help someone along the way; sometimes we need to go as 'student' because there's more that we need to learn. It's really interesting that you're going back and forth between those two phases -- and then we see how the information gets shared. It's fascinating when you watch all the interactions that happen between people to get us to where we are today.

I've had some hard stuff in my life too. But, I wouldn't I wouldn't give any of it up because I wouldn't be where I am today without those experiences.

It must be fantastic to see your husband 'lighten up'. Some guys (some women, too) try to spend their whole lifetimes 'paying' for mistakes that they've made. We usually end up making ourselves 'pay' much more than we should ever have too.

I love movies with a message too. Although a good cartoon works for me too :D

Hugs. Don't stay up all night ;)


08-20-2007, 10:35 PM
HA, yeah the old solving the rubics cube with a screwdriver, yes, I used to pop off the offending pieces with a flathead screwdriver, and pop them where they should be. I finally got a book, and memorized the unbelievably FEW moves you need to know, to get each piece from here to there, without disturbing the others. I was soooooo bummed I wasn't a rubic's geek, but at least with memorizing the moves in the book I could fake it. It's really funny cause after all these years, NOW I could probably do it because of that movie when the man doing it said the center pieces don't 'move', what ever color is in the center is the color of that side. Duh.

The Brady Bunch show has such a following, right? One of those cult things or whatnot. Well, they should have made a rubics cube with the Brady's on each colored side, aye? I mean, what's wrong with these marketing geniuses, they can't make useless crap like they used to I'll tell ya. Hee hee. Seriously now, that would be cool wouldn't it? Somehow satisfying to pop Mrs. Brady's head off with a screw driver during frustration, to cheat and solve the cube...I mean wtf, she had a maid and no job back in those days (with 'only' six kids).

And the journey of 'life' and being part of the Universe and all that, yes, I dunno if I have a hippie hangover every day of my life or what, but that stuff is amazing to me. The whole teacher/student thing you said, yes, I get that. Sometimes I feel that way, sometimes I feel like it's part of the intriquite web and there are no teachers or students or accidents, it's all predestined, then I think that's crap as soon as I get a speeding ticket or something, hee hee. As far as dh, he never 'lightens up' for long, yeesh. He was so spectacular when I was a total mess, the less of a mess I get the more of a mess he gets. He said something very telling during our last fight, something about "You have all these people and support, the RDI lady, your two girlfriends, so now you have everything you need" blah blah blah. Once again, he's thinking I need him for stuff that I don't need him for. I told him, I need him for the way he lights up when he coaches at Special Olympics, the way he catches spiders in his bathroom in a cup and releases them instead of flushing/killing them for no good reason, the way he (used to be) can be so humble and open to learning about personal growth. I remember this shrink I lived with (as one of his staff, not sexually) telling me, that someday when I get married, it doesn't matter what the guy knows, it matters that he's willing to learn. I loved that and didn't forget it. And THAT is what I love about my husband, when he's not being a big jerk on a pity pot which is completely frustrating, grrrrr. He operates so below his potential. I mean, he doesn't earn lots of money etc... and that I can deal with, he works so hard, that's what counts to me. Currently I have it more plush than ever in my life so it's relative anyhow, don't have to sweat every time I buy groceries. But he used to be really open to learning, now he's more about preaching - well on and off. Honest he has massive untreated PTS and depression, it's a bit much to live with as time goes on. But when he's in his days of clarity and acts like himself, wow, you could line up every man on the planet and I'd still pick him - though Jeff Corwin would definitely be next in line as would Jacques Cousteau if he wasn't dead I mean.

09-08-2007, 02:24 AM
Random thought....

Since we all know it's impossible to make schools responsible for what they've done, and what they do, to our kids - short of literally killing them - is it possible, to take a teacher to court, for causing post traumatic stress syndrome. Individually I mean.

As Vince went on and on again tonight, about the 'rotten apples' she put in his heart from being locked in the closet, and how when in there, he kept hoping for a window so he could escape, how he prayed to God to push play cause God's recorder was stuck on pause so he couldn't see Vince to help him but now he knows God pushed play cause of his new school...omg, I could go on forever. I thought after a dream he told me, where Adolf came to him and apologized, that he was really going to be ok and move forward. He wants to, he just can't...I'm well acquainted with PTSD, it's what I am on medication for. I want to record Vince (without him knowing) during his next ramble, his descriptions are so vivid, they break my heart...but I don't want to bring it up if he's not burdened thinking about it. Then I'll take the recordings to his shrink, cause honestly, I don't want to stifle him but I don't want to nurture him dwelling on it - I really really am not sure how to handle it. First time I ever felt I actually needed a shrinks advice - not sure if they do that, might only do meds.

Though I'm very happy that he believes God didn't allow this, or blame Him or feel unloved by Him which can happen when you have traumatic times, I just know in my heart and feel, I can't let this go either. I have to wonder, if this is something I can pursue against her....if all the admin that supported her and allowed this and continue to allow this, would turn their backs on her, she would then tell the behind the scenes truth we've never yet heard, and they'd all topple like dominoes. I have to wonder if that wishful scenario did happen, if it would change the way kids who cannot speak for themselves, are treated.

Still, I hear stories from Vince I never knew about. How he felt, how he was treated - he is totally verbal, but just has no idea what he should tell me, and often no way to tell, it just doesn't come out - he can talk lots but communicates so poorly about personal experiences and feelings and thoughts.

What other angle, can hold school staff accountable, as ANY other person would be who harms your child, locks them in a closet, etc etc... Mind you, the IEP allowing this (BIP actually) was not signed or approved by me. The FBA was close to a year overdue (law - every three years) so was the BIP. And even had the old BIP (which I did sign) been legal to follow, it said to call me when he was put in that room - I signed it when he was with a whole different case manager that kept me informed and worked with me, and when I was as clueless about what to do for him as school was.

Just want some thoughts. If an adult, locked a child in the closet, over and over, without (or even WITH!) parent approval or permission, what would the law do to them. I know school's aren't held accountable like anyone else would be, but what about the teacher herself?

Once, a man jerked Vince out a McDonalds play slide, onto the ground, Vincent's back was bleeding, it was a big ordeal I flipped out...called the cops...he at least got a citation and had to go to court and pay up. You just DON'T touch other peoples kids, let alone lock them in closets. I'm just harping on this, cause with Adolf it was abuse. Honestly there were times, I really don't know what else they could do, and I actually feared for the teachers. It was so different with her, I hope you all understand what I'm asking, and that it's not about revenge - I just don't know how to penetrate school's seeming inpenetrable legal rights to my child, rights I don't even have! Not that I want the right to harm him of course.

Also occurred to me, folks get away with 'crimes of passion', killing a cheating spouse etc... I never planned to yell at Adolf, wonder if that's a disorderly conduct of passion? Might want to ask the judge when I get my next court date...still 'innocent' btw, last date in a couple of weeks to months, still waiting to hear since I pled not guilty.

09-08-2007, 08:06 AM
Found this not sure if it helps I would say if yopu get a lawyer to go with you I would try it.


09-08-2007, 05:12 PM
Just want some thoughts. If an adult, locked a child in the closet, over and over, without (or even WITH!) parent approval or permission, what would the law do to them. I know school's aren't held accountable like anyone else would be, but what about the teacher herself?


I think there needs to be a complaint, but it needs to be immediate. If this happens at a school, I think yes, definitely, you can call the police or social services so that they may promply look into it and there is a record.
I think if parents across america stood up and took this action every time (removed their child from the school until the closet was removed)
these things would eventually be outlawed.
But, it's not happening, it's going unreported and tolerated for whatever reason, compliance issues I think.

09-08-2007, 07:26 PM

I can assure you that in many cases these things are NOT going unreported, or if they are unreported it's because parents don't know what's going on, don't understand the laws, or mistakenly are naive enough to think the schools are doing what's best for their kids, when that's not always the case when it comes down to $$ for special education.

I've tried repeatedly to get our Protection & Advocacy involved in our case - they kept insisting it wasn't abuse because it happened in school. Recently I've found out that the Supreme Court has authorized P&A's to investigate schools - but for whatever reason P&A's won't do it. So now I'm publicizing on a blog what I and other parents have been told - just so the info is public, and have been emailing various P&A's who have "mistakenly" told parents they couldn't help copies of that Supreme Court decision - to hold these agencies more accountable, and to force them to do the jobs our tax $$ pay for.

And it's not just P&A's. It's Office for Civil Rights and Dept of Ed as well. Parents file complaints, which are then closed without an investigation or findings the districts did nothing wrong. I know this is happening nationwide because I am in daily contact with people all over the U.S. with situations very similar to ours.

I'm now personally working with legislators and advocacy groups to help change things in my state, but it hasn't been easy, and I still feel the agencies I'm working with could and should be doing more, but am determined to stick with it for the long haul. Otherwise, if I don't advocate for my child and other children - as many of us here are already doing - I'd feel a hypocrite for complaining.

As for pulling your child out of school - I did that, and the district's response was to tell me that unless I either sent my kid back to school OR had a note from her doctor, they would take me to court on truancy charges, and/or would contact CYS to have my kids taken away for neglect. It's why I'm cyberschooling her this year - so she's safe at home, yet is still being educated.

Take care,


09-08-2007, 07:28 PM

All school district personnel must follow a code of ethics, same as doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, etc. Try to get a copy of your district's code of ethics (or pm me with the name of your district & I'll see what I can find), and file an ethics complaint against the administrators, teachers, etc., who knew what was going on and did nothing to stop it. Supposedly this is more effective than filing state complaints with either OCR or DPE because this is something that goes into the teacher's permanant record - thus making it more difficult to obtain employment. Let me know if you need help with this.

Take care,


09-08-2007, 08:01 PM
Gwyn, yes yes yes, I'm pming you. You might remember, OCR investigated then did nothing - and here I was so hopeful when they investigated. Wis. Coalition for Advocacy also NOTHING after months of letters and correspondence, said they didn't have a case. Police wouldn't TOUCH it. IEP was not followed, in too many ways to list. Everyone knew the stuff she did and does, the Superintendent blew me off right off the bat.

On and on. I think part of my inability to let this go, is to date I hear things from Vince on at least a weekly basis, that I had no idea was happening to him, it's still alive and raw for him. Even if it weren't, what about all the other kids? How am I better than the other staff that knew and watched, if I don't try. I mean I have tried, but - well I think you have a lot more experience in this run around based on what you posted, I know you can imagine the walls I've hit.

And the stuff about truentcy, me too, they threatened the same, that Vince would be put in foster care, etc... refused to let him go back for related services, cops threatened me by saying I was 'lucky' they could have taken Vince to a boys detention place for hurting the teachers (nothing about consequences for the teachers....Vince was DEFENDING himself not violent out of the blue for no reason to hurt another). And as you know I was locked in jail....for complaining they locked my kid in a room too loud.

No WAY, would this happen to an nt kid. No way, no how - first of all, they'd be able to TELL.

Ok, pming. Thank you very much - I swear if you tell me what to do, if you guide me - I'll do it, I'll write, email, etc... About the only thing I don't think I can take, is getting numbers, then those numbers tell me to call other numbers, etc etc...

Thank you!

09-08-2007, 08:17 PM
Hey Gwyn, just pm'd you!

MaryEv, I read the first page of that site...it sounds fantastic, but, without a lawyer...ya know? However, who knows, maybe I can print a few cases out, and mail them around to lawyers with what the school did to Vince. I'm really battling inside, if I get wrapped up in school's accountability, that's less time for RDI and so many positives...I tend to get 24/7 wrapped up in things, read read read all the legal stuff on the puter while the kids watch tv. I am soooo unbalanced. But, it is a good site. I marked it. I liked it.

Grimey, I totally complained, over and over, to agencies that are there to help kids, help the disabled, protect rights, omg, on and on and on...never did a bit of good. I can't explain it. It's like all these ppl get together with white sheets on their heads like the kkk, and I'm calling one kkk to consequate another kkk, so it never happens. But I won't give up. Can't afford a lawyer and that sucks. But I'll keep my ears opened for the words 'Pro Bono' at all times. Ya know? WTF, we don't have any lawyers here on BrainTalk, yeesh. I need a civil rights attorney, specifically, for Vince. All this 'jim crow' for autistic kids, it's deplorable. I don't think parents with no sped kids have a clue, and wonder how they'd feel if they knew. I know some wouldn't care, but wonder if the majority would support what is right?

09-08-2007, 10:04 PM
Why CAN"T you give up? It sounds like you have done pretty much everything you could on this. So you didn't get any results, sometimes that happens. And you have to eventually accept that.

09-08-2007, 11:08 PM
Because I didn't go down the right paths, and didn't exhaust all reasonable options such as hunting for a pro bono. Because I drop my daughter off at that school every day, and wonder what's happening to who. Cause if no one tries to make something happen that seems impossible, for sure it never will. Cause other mom's are as overstressed, hopeless feeling and depressed as I was, and are believing it's ok to let school staff have carte blanche with their kid - or - has no idea what is being done to their kid, and shaking their head at their child's behavior (but not the staff causing it).

Because I just can't. I already made up my mind till he is 21, which is 10 more years and is how long he has left in school, I'll try.

I'd never ever get over things I quit or woose out on, if I try my BEST, I can live with defeat. Ya know? That coward dies a thousand deaths saying, it's like that. Keep in mind, if I didn't have r....D....I and my consultant to guide me, I can't see that I'd be able to have any unk at all, let alone the unk to continue this battle.

09-09-2007, 12:52 AM
If Carmen goes there this year, that's even more reason to get over your anger toward the school. She needs to feel like she's going to a positive supporting environment.. right?

09-09-2007, 01:04 AM
As much as I'd like to see Adolf busted....would that help Vince get over this? I'd focus on him dealing and getting over it. A lawsuit would require an awful lot of proof. Proof that she abused him, proof that there are damages to be compensated. The fact that the all the officials dismissed it plays in her favor. Its injust and unfair and horrible and she shouldn't get away with it and she shouldn't be allowed to continue doing it. But, how in the world, with the cops, ocr, state officials, superintendent, et al, how in the world will she ever get what she deserves?

09-09-2007, 01:47 AM
If Carmen goes there this year, that's even more reason to get over your anger toward the school. She needs to feel like she's going to a positive supporting environment.. right?

Carmen knows it's just the ONE woman, I get along with all of the 'regular' staff, non special ed. Actually, several of the spec ed staff from his previous years keep in touch with me we got along so well! Adolf though, got an army of ADMIN around her last year, not staff, and any time I tried to mention anything she did at an IEP the dir of student serv. would immediately dismiss the meeting and order all staff to get up and leave.

Carmen knows I love her teachers, she gets to enjoy her school life - and she often asks me, "how come they just feed the autistic kids candy all day instead of teaching them" "how come they never make them study" "how come no one would hug ***** when he was crying, how come he bites his arm so hard it bleeds". Carmen isn't blind, actually Carmen had to use her savings to bail me out of jail. That was very traumatic for her, and it killed me she was involved in that. Here she sat alone in my car the whole time they held me in the school, it was terrible. Thank God I pulled a thought out of my head...I told her, "Carmen, I know you saw me in jail, I know you were scared, I'm home now - and by getting me out like you did and being involved now makes you a part of HISTORY". Remember we are HUGE Martin Luther King Jr. admirers. Currently I'm trying to study his nonviolent approach (that would include yelling) - he says you have to understand the other side first. That's why I LISTENED at the last school meeting. I'm going to try and follow, with my wee mommy brain, what this great and intelligent and spiritual man did in the face of far more odds than I have. She knows what I'm trying to do, it's not about them paying for what they did - I agree that's not likely to happen. The pay off is about no more 'Jim Crow' for autistics and any child with a disability, especially those that cannot speak for themselves - even some folks that can talk, they can't speak for themselves, they don't realize how bad they're being treated. What is acceptable for autistic kids, would NEVER be acceptable for nt kids. I didn't even realize how much I accepted that was done to Vince, cause I didn't know what else to do and actually empathized with the SCHOOL - I was nuts! I've told Carmen lots, I'm so glad she has such great teachers...they're not perfect, who is, but she is LEARNING and not being dehumanized. And when she has been through her teacher who I realize can get too busy for the amount of tenderness Carmen sometimes needs, we bring it to her attention, and it gets fixed up.

I sense you have some wisdom you're trying to give me, and I'm just not getting it. I'm trying though. But trust me, Carmen was 'involved' long before any of this, I can only buffer what she sees just so much. She has told staff "you shouldn't treat him like that!" about other kids being treated badly that are in spec ed. I've never heard a single complaint from school about her sticking up for spec needs kids, which I doubt I ever would cause she's right!

So, overall, there are times she sees and is effected by the few crappy staff there. Mostly she just gets to be a kid. I can't recall her ever being teased about her brother or anything like that. Her problem is she is not a caddy gossipy 10 year old...she's a cutie with a supportive family and good self esteem that other girls like to try to tear down and tease for her own LD (lack of automaticity, so poor reading and math). She is quite a kid. Anyhow, I hope that all made sense.

09-09-2007, 02:09 AM
As much as I'd like to see Adolf busted....would that help Vince get over this? I'd focus on him dealing and getting over it. A lawsuit would require an awful lot of proof. Proof that she abused him, proof that there are damages to be compensated. The fact that the all the officials dismissed it plays in her favor. Its injust and unfair and horrible and she shouldn't get away with it and she shouldn't be allowed to continue doing it. But, how in the world, with the cops, ocr, state officials, superintendent, et al, how in the world will she ever get what she deserves?

Yeah that's why I totally doubt there'll ever be a legal type thing against her, see, here's what I know about myself. No matter how angry I am, my energy level for revenge is really low. I just don't have it. That's cause deep down I don't want revenge, getting folks back - even when I have tried - has never made me feel any better. Makes me feel worse. Now I know I intentionally made someone have even more reason to believe any negative convictions about me an justify their actions to themselves. I can't know how I come off here for sure, and I'm for sure no saint. But I swear, the thing I thrive on is mutual understanding of one another - where I really fail at that is I want to be understood but find it very very hard to see the other side. My head keeps thinking "but you're wrong, but you're not thinking about this and that" like my brain can't keep quiet while another is talking, I think though my hugest hurdle is nt's say what they sort of mean, not what they mean. So generally, it's not a conversation I even know the meaning of...so how can I ever understand the other side given that it's being spoken to me in another language. So, to make up for that, I try really really hard to honestly explain my side, hoping they'll see my side and change theirs. I have teased myself about how I think I'm always right, I really don't think that. Except about RDI I mean. And I KNOW that is RIGHT for ALL kids and adults, husbands and overstressed housewives especially.

If I look past my anger, when I see my son STILL in trauma mode over Adolf, I swear to you, if she could understand how I felt, how VINCENT felt, that would totally be 'punishment' enough for me. No reward could be greater to me than her understanding it all. And I might be really naive for that, cause I believe there is a good chance she has some mental issues herself, and feels stronger by breaking down kids - not nt kids though cause they'd eat her alive. She really is a nurse Ratchet. Anyhow. Hope that makes more sense.

I'm looking forward, to Gwyn giving me some direction in where to go about this whole situation. If nothing else, maybe they will be more on guard and not so inhuman, to the kids they have now, cause they'll be paranoid.

Anyhow, I can't quit. I do want to work on my anger I feel. I have told Vince over and over, that she really did not know what to do, made very bad decisions, etc... No way would I ever feed his 'hate', but I'm not sure how well I can help him while I'm still working on mine. I really do want to not ever hate any human for any reason. But honestly I'd love to see her locked in that room by her students, get so upset she'd bite her arm bloody, be given a bucket instead of the bathroom like she did to Vincent, and have to be calm and sit up and beg before being released from the room. I want to help it, but it's true, I do want to see her punished, but only cause I don't believe my first choice, her really understanding, will ever happen. Mutual understanding between her and her students from now on, would be my first choice.

Cause I'm an idiot. It'll never happen so I shouldn't even imagine it.

09-09-2007, 02:22 AM
She's unable to borrow your or Vince's perspective.